#084 - Christine Miles | Unlocking The Art of Listening

Christine Miles is an author, public speaker, and has dedicated herself to helping individuals become better listeners for more than twenty years. In this conversation, Christine Miles and I discuss the importance of listening to understand rather than to respond. She shares her personal experiences that shaped her understanding of listening, including her mother's struggles with mental health and her own challenges after a life-altering accident. Christine introduces the concept of the 'listening path' and emphasizes the need for effective listening tools, including six key questions that can enhance understanding in conversations. The discussion highlights the profound impact of being truly listened to and the skills necessary to foster meaningful communication. Further, Christine and I delve into the intricacies of listening, exploring its significance in both personal and professional contexts. We discuss the challenges of effective listening, the impact of social anxiety on communication, and the importance of teaching listening skills to students. Christine emphasizes the need for empathy and understanding in conversations, highlighting how our subconscious influences our listening abilities. The discussion culminates in practical advice for improving listening skills and fostering deeper connections through effective communication, and, much more. Thank you for tuning and hope you enjoy the show! 

Connect with Christine here: https://www.christinemileslistens.com/about

Newfoundland-based Jumping Bean Coffee: https://jumpingbean.ca/our-coffee/

Download the Luxy App: https://www.onluxy.com/?srsltid=AfmBOoqTNbyn-jjHs7e_i30XoKL8TjYHwsNZf3mszmFzGiR7IyEUU0FD

Thoughts shared on the podcast are purely our own and do not represent the views of the Anglophone South School District or the relevant jurisdictions associated with my guests.

Transcript

Lucas Clarke (00:00.63)
All right, cliche line to start off here. The dramatic countdown is over. I say that every time we get going. But Christine Miles, absolute pleasure to have you on here today.

Christine Miles (00:05.143)
You

Christine Miles (00:10.323)
Great to be here. I like the countdown actually. That's kind of exciting.

Lucas Clarke (00:14.072)
Yeah, it gets me like, it's kind of go the basketball life like, okay, we're getting back into it here. this and this might seem like a very broad general question, but I heard it actually stayed on another podcast. And I just kind of liked it's like, how do you describe what you do?

Christine Miles (00:27.864)
Hmm.

Christine Miles (00:32.63)
Hmm. Yeah. How do I describe it? Cause people ask me that a lot and the answer usually discombobulates them. so I always say we teach people how to listen to understand and people go, Hmm, that's different. It's not a usual job thing that I get. Yeah. It's not a title. It's not really, it's a thing. It's, it's a how. Yeah.

Lucas Clarke (00:39.288)
Mm-hmm.

Lucas Clarke (00:45.12)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Lucas Clarke (00:53.048)
I like the how of listening, I like that. And so I guess where, at what point in your life do you kind of see this as something you want to pursue as like an area of further study or that like you kind of notice that other people have an issue with?

Christine Miles (00:56.866)
Yeah.

Christine Miles (01:10.318)
Yeah, was so I was pretty young when I started to notice it and yeah, you know, obviously the the hindsight of your life and and really putting all the puzzle pieces together, but there's a lot of moments in my life that this became clear. It started early. Five was my earliest memory of listening differently. So I was didn't expect that either. see.

Lucas Clarke (01:31.179)
Okay.

Yeah, definitely not.

Christine Miles (01:36.59)
I mean, yeah, so I've shared this before. My origin story is really my mother had depression and anxiety. She had mental health issues stemming from the loss of her mother. And despite my mother's just outward appearance and her nature, which was warm and loving and kind, she had a lot of pain underneath the surface because she lost her mother from childbirth. Her mother died from childbirth. And it's a little bit of a longer story.

Lucas Clarke (02:03.032)
Okay. Yep.

Christine Miles (02:04.364)
But she had a lot of pain below the surface that most people couldn't see. And they had a hard time understanding her pain that lived because they couldn't reconcile what they saw outside versus underneath. And I learned how to pay attention to that. And then it shaped how I listen. And I also saw people this need to rush to remind my mother how great her life was despite all this pain. So they tried to talk her out of it a lot.

Lucas Clarke (02:31.117)
Yeah.

Christine Miles (02:33.224)
and it just made things worse. I call it death by a thousand cuts. Each instance of not listening kind of inflicted a small wound and over time the wounds added up. So I learned pretty early that the reason I was succeeding was because of disability that I learned that most people aren't taught as a kid. And so that was, that started in high school that that awareness started to seep in a little bit.

that the only reason I was successful was because I wasn't naturally gifted or talented in any other way, I assure you. But I succeeded because I had this other thing. It was a turbocharger. yeah. No.

Lucas Clarke (03:09.656)
Well, that's not right. I was just as fascinating because like I love that. Usually when most people start to open up to someone about something that's like deeply affected them or affecting them, there's a need to be like, oh, well, I also went through this or like not necessarily like a trauma one upping by any means, but you're trying to at the same time, like someone like I lost my dad when I was 22, I was in university and people are like, oh, like you're like.

Christine Miles (03:28.034)
Hmm.

Yes, yeah.

Christine Miles (03:36.376)
Hmm.

Lucas Clarke (03:38.488)
Oh, God is still good. Like your life is still great. I'm like, OK, I get that. But I'm like, he just died. Like, it's pretty shitty right now. Like, I'm not going to lie. But and so I guess what have you learned? Maybe learned is the wrong word. But I guess what have you experienced differently about maybe someone who suffered such a deep trauma and being able to listen a little bit differently in those situations when they come up with other people?

Christine Miles (03:40.444)
Yes!

Christine Miles (04:03.507)
Yeah, so isn't that painful and it's well intended, but it is annoying.

Lucas Clarke (04:07.84)
It did always. Yeah, because you're like, you always kind of smile like I see what you're doing. But I'm like, it's not there is no perfect way to respond.

Christine Miles (04:13.102)
Yeah. Yeah. And it's usually most people's discomfort. So one of my trajectory points too is I was in an auto accident when I was 28. And so I was a pretty high level athlete at that time, not basketball, because I couldn't jump to save my life. I was a field hockey player. And I had this auto accident. I was on my way to work at a new job. And for three years, I had chronic pain that went acute. my life

changed on a dime and for a, it's never been the same, frankly. And I mean, I had to fight my way for a very long time back to any sense of kind of normalcy. And when I share with people, hey, I was in this accident and I had three spinal surgeries and all this chronic and acute pain, they go, you're okay now though, right? Like we want, like, I mean, look at me. Yeah, I mean, yeah, exactly. But it's, and the number, I mean,

Lucas Clarke (05:02.424)
You're not listening.

Christine Miles (05:10.84)
That's the well intended but really hurtful things people said in their effort to get me out of their own pain. it's that's that's the cuts, right? That's a severe example what you and I have experienced from a difficult loss, a tragic loss. People want to rush to fix it. But in every conversation, whether we're with our our children or spouses or at work.

We tend to want to rush to fix the problem, even if it's not over a tragic situation. I had a bad day. My boss said this. Well, so your boss that I think blah, blah. And so that doesn't moving forward is not listening. We got to go back to listen differently. so otherwise we're just creating those wounds all the time. We're just not aware of it. Yeah.

Lucas Clarke (05:44.545)
Yeah.

Lucas Clarke (05:57.592)
Yeah, because I heard it was like marriage advice. I can't remember where I heard it from, but it was it was saying, like, do you want to be listened to or do you want solutions? Like that was kind of the. But that just shows like you go into listening with a different intention is that I know earlier we were talking about like you have contributed.

Christine Miles (06:08.739)
Mm-hmm.

Christine Miles (06:15.682)
Yeah.

Lucas Clarke (06:21.09)
contributed to the development of a concept of a map of listening? Is that something along the lines of what it is you are trying to look at the different types of listening? Can you elaborate a bit further on what you kind of go into that?

Christine Miles (06:24.376)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Christine Miles (06:31.758)
Sure. So to me, the so the goal of listening is to understand that is the outcome. Not agree, not fix, not problem solve to understand listening just to listen. I isn't necessarily how I would define it. A lot of people say that to me. They go, why ask the person do you want me to just listen? Do you want to vent or do you want me to try to help you fix it? But sometimes the person talking doesn't really know the answer to that. So I think that

Lucas Clarke (06:55.768)
Mm-hmm.

Christine Miles (07:01.612)
You just have to earn the right to fix it. And that when you listen to understand, you'll know whether you've earned that right and you'll know what the person needs or wants and you'll help them figure it out. Cause a lot of times people come to their own solutions when you listen to understand you don't need to give the advice. Yeah.

Lucas Clarke (07:09.783)
Mm-hmm.

Lucas Clarke (07:16.514)
Yeah.

That's honestly I've had a lot of principles on so obviously like I'm in from the education world K to 12 when they say like every time they would see a teacher like me potentially struggling It was never you think you'd be surprised how much progress you can make by just asking How are things going and just letting them talk themselves into their own answer then actually saying I see you're having this problem Why don't you try this like actually just sitting there and let them?

Christine Miles (07:38.41)
Yes. Right.

Yes, yes.

Lucas Clarke (07:46.764)
figure like untangled themselves in a weird way. don't know why that is the case,

Christine Miles (07:48.578)
Yeah.

Because we, because being listened to and understood helps us do that. It does you untangles the right word. I love that word. It does help us untangle that. And if it doesn't, then I can earn the right to offer a perspective that might add to that untangling help do that faster. but you gotta, I believe you have to earn the right before we do that instead of just rushing to like, to me, even though again, I'm going to, it's well intended. think it's very arrogant.

to say to you as a young person when you lost your dad, oh, it's not such a, I mean, it's okay though. Right, yeah, it's like, because that's not, that is just the opposite. That's an affront because I mean, goodness, like I can't imagine losing my parent at 12, 22. know, my parents, I had other problems, but I didn't have that problem. So the pain of that is unimaginable to me and how that punches you in the gut. So.

Lucas Clarke (08:27.69)
I have your mom.

Lucas Clarke (08:41.952)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Christine Miles (08:50.828)
Yeah, I think it's very presumptive to jump to that conclusion, but it's human nature because we don't like to see people in pain. So don't think people are ill-willed. They don't like to see somebody in pain. So they try to talk them out of it. saw it with my mother since I was a little kid. Yeah.

Lucas Clarke (09:01.72)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Lucas Clarke (09:07.16)
And there is, I'm just gonna keep like, what's the word I'm looking for? I'm plagiarizing other podcast thoughts by just not remembering where they came from. But there was someone who said, I promise, somewhere out there, that said, it can be surprising how other people communicate with you differently when you're actually listening to them. Because it's almost,

Christine Miles (09:17.314)
That's cool. I like.

Christine Miles (09:34.542)
Mm-hmm.

Lucas Clarke (09:36.416)
that we're so used to, like kind of just waiting to respond to what someone is saying versus actually listening to what they're saying. And a hundred percent doing 50 hours of podcasting helps by actually trying to listen to what the other person is saying. But have you ever given much thought to that idea of like how, what it means to actually be listened to and kind of how that changes the conversational dynamic?

Christine Miles (09:43.779)
Yeah.

Christine Miles (09:52.225)
Yeah, sure.

Christine Miles (10:05.722)
Well, it's been my life's work really, that very thing. So it's a profound experience. The problem is we don't know what it means to be the one that's listening to. We don't know what that looks like, what that should feel like, because we're not up skilled to do that. We're winging it, so to speak. We're just relying on our ability to hear and our good intentions, which is part of the problem. I'll tell you a story. I'll go back a long time ago. This was when I was playing hockey tournaments.

Lucas Clarke (10:08.696)
Mm-hmm.

Lucas Clarke (10:33.28)
Absolutely.

Christine Miles (10:35.618)
we would play field hockey, not ice hockey, indoor. And I was already injured. So was painful for me. I loved my friends. I loved the sports. So even though I couldn't play, I was still going. And one of my good friends met her now husband. And he was quite guy. people was like, hey, I met so Michael and he's great and blah, blah. And then the other people, we all met him kind of separately in this kind of larger environment.

And then I came back and I said, yeah, you know, I met him too. And he told me, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. He was married before and this happened to that. And they went, how'd you get all that? Like what? You were gone 10 minutes. I go, yeah. But that's what it does. That's what it does. It's like people start to express who they are, what they feel, what they, you know, so you gotta, you gotta encourage that in a way and create that.

Lucas Clarke (11:08.844)
What?

Lucas Clarke (11:12.641)
Hahaha

Lucas Clarke (11:18.744)
Yeah.

Christine Miles (11:28.098)
But it's a powerful experience to be listened to. And when you do, people will talk to you. So don't do it on a plane. If you don't want to be, if you don't want to sit next to that person and hear their story. And I learned this many times, but one time they upgraded me to first class and I was like, I'm so, I was going to a wedding. It was far away. I was so excited. You know, finally I'm going to be comfortable. This beautiful woman came in.

Lucas Clarke (11:37.4)
Yeah

Christine Miles (11:56.694)
ready to sit down winter, like beautiful white, like looked impeccable. And I was going through my divorce at the time. And I think I said something like, know, some came up and I said about the divorce and she went, I'm going through a divorce. And I started listening. And for that entire first-class flight, I was her therapist because it's, you know, it begets that whole like.

Lucas Clarke (12:18.328)
Yeah.

Christine Miles (12:22.552)
comfort of sharing. So be careful. It's a powerful tool. It's a powerful skill.

Lucas Clarke (12:24.012)
Yeah.

Lucas Clarke (12:27.768)
And I'm only kind of laughing along, especially at the beginning there, because my mom and I have always talked about, like, because she used to be like a nail tech. So she would sit with people for like, she's like, they would just tell the craze, like two hours and they're sobbing. it's just, and like, she's not even asking them necessarily questions. It's just making conversation and just wherever it leads. And I've kind of always been in a similar.

Christine Miles (12:38.926)
she's a therapist. She's a therapist.

Christine Miles (12:46.826)
sure, yeah.

Christine Miles (12:53.378)
Yeah. Yeah.

Lucas Clarke (12:57.858)
Like I've self-assigned myself as kind of like the friend to all my friends so they can like tell the personal stuff to you. And it's like, I'm not gonna judge you for it. again, I'm not trying to say that I'm better than anyone in any regard, but that's kind of just, but I've always ended up kind of getting the tea or the baggage, one or the other is kind of my, but I'm always happy to take it on. I just find like, those are the conversations that like make us human and they're just interesting. Not even interesting, but they're just,

Christine Miles (13:03.17)
Yeah. Yeah.

Christine Miles (13:11.35)
Sure.

Christine Miles (13:14.986)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Lucas Clarke (13:28.232)
you're engaging with something real. And I think that's what's most

Christine Miles (13:30.272)
Yeah, it's a different level of life and meaning, isn't it? So I call that the gift of understanding. Like when you give that gift, it's powerful. that really, and this applies across the board, whether you're talking to a stranger, an Uber driver, or someone in the grocery store, your best friend or a customer, it's a gift. And that gift you receive from that gift, a guy...

Lucas Clarke (13:34.316)
Yes.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Christine Miles (13:57.622)
reached out to me, a real estate guy. He read my book and he was very sweet. He wanted to touch base. He wants to potentially bring me into his firm to talk, to do a talk. But he shared that he was in recovery for eight years. And he's just a fabulous guy. And he said, I decided, I talked about the listening path in the book. And he said, I decided to use one of the tools we call it the compass. It's the six most powerful questions to get the story. And he said,

I went and met with my sponsor who I've known since I've been, you know, gotten sober. We know each other very well. And he said, I went in with just those six questions. And by the end of the conversation, he said to me, I've only ever told one other person what I've just told you in my life. And he said, the guy said to me that read my book said, now I needed to hear that, but I also think he needed to tell it more than I even needed to hear it. And that's the gift, right?

Lucas Clarke (14:53.08)
Yeah.

Christine Miles (14:55.534)
That's the give back. So we receive and we give.

Lucas Clarke (15:00.126)
And so a lot right there with because one, guess first off, can you walk me through these six questions?

Christine Miles (15:10.104)
Sure, sure. So let me take you back just to anchor it into the map. You mentioned the map. So the listening path is the path to understanding. So that's what that means. I decided that listening was way too complicated and part of why it was so hard for people to learn how to do. It's also very, was why it's hard to teach. So my mission has been to solve that problem. How do we teach adults and now young people in schools

Lucas Clarke (15:14.008)
Absolutely. Yep. Yep.

Lucas Clarke (15:21.75)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Christine Miles (15:39.106)
how to listen. So the path is really this metaphor and story. You wouldn't go hiking in the woods without tools or supplies. That would be crazy, right? I'll drop you in the forest and go in unprepared. You'll be like, well, will we go into the conversational woods all the time unprepared? So you need the tools to navigate the path in order to reach the understanding. And so one of the first things you need to know on the listening path is that when you're listening, you're always listening to a story.

Lucas Clarke (15:47.48)
Mm-hmm. Yep.

Mm-hmm.

Christine Miles (16:09.09)
Your child says, how was your day at school? They say, good. That's a story. If your customer says my project, mean, your employee says my project is going well. That is also a story. And your job as the listener is to get the story. That's the primary job of the listener to navigate the trail and guide the speaker to tell their story. So that's quite a flip because we think of listening as just talk and I'll listen versus I'm going to actually help you navigate.

to where we need to go. So the listener is in charge on the listening path. They're the guide. They're guiding the speaker to tell the story. So one of the ways you guide them on the trail and on that story path is to make sure you point them in the right direction. And the compass does that. It orients you on the path to know which way you go. Most people go forward, just like we've described in both of our experiences. People say, are you okay now, Christine?

Lucas Clarke (16:45.24)
Mm-hmm.

Christine Miles (17:05.856)
Right? Sure you are. hey, not such a big deal that your dad died. Let's move on, right? Forward. So maybe that's a little rough way of putting it. When the first thing you really need to do is go back. So one of the six questions and the first one on the compass is take me back to the beginning. So if you said, hey, my dad, my dad died. Yeah, take me back. Tell me where that started. When did that happen? You know, first question beginning because.

Lucas Clarke (17:06.156)
Mm-hmm.

Lucas Clarke (17:10.84)
Yeah.

Christine Miles (17:34.366)
That's really where all the root cause of everything is. it's like watching a movie. If you don't have the beginning, you're just lost and confused. Right? So most people are terrible storytellers. We're not really good at...

Lucas Clarke (17:48.216)
You

Well, I think so many people feel like I'll bore them if I tell the whole story. But that's actually what we want to hear. Like I want to hear like we're having a conversation like don't feel like you get so I guess before we go any further, like what have you I don't like using just the frame, the phrase of what have you learned? But like how have how have you changed the way you tell stories now that you've kind of gone through this like listening work?

Christine Miles (17:58.606)
Yeah.

Christine Miles (18:11.298)
Hmm.

Christine Miles (18:17.282)
Well, I've always, I was raised with a storyteller. So I had that skill from a pretty young age. So I know how more than most, and now that I also teach this, because it's part of the path, how to tell a story in an organized way. So I think you're right that some people don't say the whole thing, but most of us just don't know how to organize it. We're not writers. And so we confuse the listener right off the bat.

Lucas Clarke (18:40.64)
Yep. Yeah, that's true.

Lucas Clarke (18:44.952)
Mm-hmm.

Christine Miles (18:46.338)
By the way, I had a gentleman, you can't make this stuff up, in a workshop one time say, he goes, Christine, my wife used to spend nine hours telling me about her nine hour day. I don't have that kind of time. I go, you're not married anymore. He's like, no. So the truth is, if we let the speaker be in charge, they'll wander all over the place. They'll get us lost in the woods because

Lucas Clarke (18:58.846)
Hahaha

I like that.

Lucas Clarke (19:12.098)
Hmm.

Christine Miles (19:14.124)
we're not organized and we don't part of listening and and why therapists and journalists are the best story gatherers, the best listeners is because they know they have to get the story and they know they have to piece it all together, right? They have to find everything out so they can tell that narrative back, whether it's in an article on TV or in a, in a therapy room where we're trying to uncover where do things begin so we can figure out where to go. So

That's because we're not good at organizing the story. Most people drop us right into the middle of the movie with the problem. I had a terrible day. You're at the middle, not the beginning. Yeah. I lost my keys to my car. then, okay, but where did it start? Well, I was rushing out the door. I forgot to grab this. There's always more. Yeah, there's always more at the beginning. So that's a really powerful question. Do want me to keep going with the compass?

Lucas Clarke (19:50.05)
Yeah.

Lucas Clarke (20:02.2)
slept in.

Lucas Clarke (20:08.792)
Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah.

Christine Miles (20:11.246)
All right, so take me, and by the way, people can download this on my website. This is one of the things we give away. Yeah, because it's a lot to take in. So take me back to the beginning, then what happened? If you listen to sitcoms, movies, that line is in there a lot because it helps feed the line back to the, actually the actor. So if I, they're telling you something, oh, well then what? That's another way to.

Lucas Clarke (20:15.244)
Yeah, I'll put it in the show notes as well.

Yeah, that's fine.

Lucas Clarke (20:35.053)
Mm-hmm.

Christine Miles (20:39.278)
So it's same in regular conversations as well. But just pay attention, you'll start to see it. How did that make you feel?

Lucas Clarke (20:41.336)
Okay. Yep.

Christine Miles (20:49.538)
Feelings are a really important part to get of the now, you rather than talk me out of your feelings, let me, how about you tell me about your feelings. So that's one. tell me more. Very powerful question. If you tell me more, it's not news, but it is when you use it in combination with these other, other questions, it becomes even more powerful. And then this, people are going to say, this isn't really a question and they're right, but it sort of is because it's like, Hmm.

Lucas Clarke (20:52.172)
Mm-hmm.

Lucas Clarke (20:57.09)
Mm-hmm.

Lucas Clarke (21:01.528)
Tell me more, yeah?

Christine Miles (21:18.868)
And who you've been doing it this entire time, by the way, Lucas. So is tell me more in an almost imperceptible way. But when you're in it with somebody, you're encouraging more. And then the last question is, it sounds like you felt and then you fill in the blank. So most people have three emotions they can name. Sadly, we have very limited emotional language. So when you start to when you start to add the language for people.

Lucas Clarke (21:22.05)
Yep.

Lucas Clarke (21:42.904)
Yeah.

Christine Miles (21:46.666)
it helps take it to another level too. you felt it sounds like you felt really, you know, discombobulated. I didn't feel discombobulated. I felt it. I was furious. All right. Now we have now we're beyond anger or frustration.

Lucas Clarke (21:54.496)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We have nuance. It's not just angry anxious or tired. Those are probably the three that come to mind right away for me. Yeah. Well maybe it's bad I didn't think of happy right away but it's fine. I promise I had a good day. Angry tired frustrated pissed off. yeah. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Christine Miles (22:04.672)
Yep. Happy, happy, glad. Yep.

You have. Well, that's pretty good. You got to they're in the same category, but you're doing well. You're doing well. Yeah. So for four fact questions, three, two, pardon me, two feeling questions. If you ask only those questions, you're guaranteed to get both parts of the narrative. You're guaranteed to get the story from beginning to new beginning with all the facts and feelings and great movies. Great stories have.

both parts of the narrative, both the facts and the feelings.

Lucas Clarke (22:44.184)
Yeah, and because I especially love the tell me more question or statement because my brother is actually a pastor, was in the past and now he's kind of going back and do it as far as I know. And I remember like being in high school, I think, and he was away for university. And I went to go see him. I remember we were driving and

Christine Miles (22:51.106)
Hmm.

Lucas Clarke (23:11.192)
I guess, like sometimes when you haven't seen anyone for a while, like it can feel not awkward, but like you're kind of getting used to each other again. Like you're just like, how did we used to just sit here for nine hours? But now it's been an hour and we're kind of looking for things to talk about. But in the process of that, I remember I was telling him a story about something and then he just said, tell me more about that. But I don't know why that struck such a chord of like, oh, he's like, I noticed he was like purposely just just trying to like.

Christine Miles (23:17.037)
Sure, sure.

Christine Miles (23:23.34)
Yeah, yeah.

Christine Miles (23:29.89)
Hmm... Hmm...

Christine Miles (23:39.512)
Yeah, like, yeah, yeah.

Lucas Clarke (23:39.604)
Explain more, like tell me more, like what is it that you, and I remember I, again, I can talk for a long time and I did. So I guess that's, it's, there's power in the simplicity of some of these questions. I feel like that people mostly overlook. And so like you are, you're talking about those kind of six key questions, which I love giving specificity to that. Cause I think some people will look at listening as a topic of discussion.

Christine Miles (23:46.157)
Yeah.

Christine Miles (23:52.312)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Christine Miles (24:03.576)
Mm-hmm.

Lucas Clarke (24:08.472)
and just be like, oh, I just won't interrupt them. That's kind of what people at what they'll think of being a better listener. so, yes.

Christine Miles (24:08.652)
Mm-hmm.

Christine Miles (24:14.462)
Right. Yeah, just be patient, be calm, be quiet, let them talk. Yeah, no, no. In fact, interrupting is a very powerful listening tool. It's a more advanced tool, but it's a really important skill. It's just not where you start. It's because, know, well, first of all, want to say kudos to you for being so observant in that moment. So there's something special there in my.

Lucas Clarke (24:25.592)
Okay.

Mm-hmm. okay, so tell me more about that.

Lucas Clarke (24:41.42)
Well, thanks. And I think it's like he was also being trained to be a pastor at the time. And so I think that might have been something he learned. Right. So that was like, like I'm picking up on these cues. Yes.

Christine Miles (24:45.13)
Okay, yeah, sure. But you still noticed it, you noticed it, and it's a powerful experience. may I, so as an athlete, I'm going to say good to great here. So rather than tell me more about that, just tell me more. So you can take this back to him. Because when we say about that, we do direction, we give a direction to where we want the speaker to go.

Lucas Clarke (24:58.648)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Lucas Clarke (25:04.311)
Yeah.

Lucas Clarke (25:10.495)
Okay

Christine Miles (25:11.224)
versus just leaving it open. We don't need the about that. It's wasted words. Yeah. So, yeah. So, but again, I just want to say kudos to that. So, and of course, now I forgot your question, but it is, the simplicity is helpful. It is, yeah. so interrupting. Thank you. So, we usually interrupt to talk.

Lucas Clarke (25:18.716)
I like that.

Interrupting.

Christine Miles (25:32.536)
to serve our own needs. that happened to me. You said that, well, God only gives you as much as you can handle. I heard that quite a few times. It might be true, but I didn't want to hear it because they hadn't earned the right yet to tell me that. Or knew if I believed that, to be honest. Or I thought, well, why am I getting picked on? Lots of things. But interrupting to serve my agenda is different than interrupting to understand.

Lucas Clarke (25:39.308)
Yep. That's a crazy one. Yes.

Lucas Clarke (25:53.397)
Yep.

Christine Miles (26:02.136)
So, but our brains are wild and our brain is the greatest enemy of listening, which is why white knuckling it doesn't work. So I agree with your assessment. Most of us think I'll just shut up and I won't say anything, but one that's hard to do because people are terrible storytellers. It's hard to be patient in this digital crazy world and in general. And our brains are firing a wire and telling us to do everything, but listen, don't listen. That's what the subconscious brain is saying.

So we need the right tools to navigate the path proficiently and efficiently because time matters. just letting someone talk for hours and hours in my office, if I'm a senior leader or a leader or a manager, I have to get to repause quickly and I have to make you feel understood quickly. So I have to be efficient and proficient to be successful.

Lucas Clarke (26:57.188)
And so let's just say, okay, Christine Miles, I have my realtor firm. I'd like you to come give a talk. guess what you've kind of been talking about is like, not listening actually costs you. And I thought that was, because again, I think sometimes people to take an idea seriously, I'm assuming there's some sort of transactional monetary value involved in this loss and that's kind of what you're going towards. So I guess, how do you go from

Christine Miles (27:05.069)
you

Christine Miles (27:10.701)
Mm-hmm.

Christine Miles (27:20.92)
Yeah.

Lucas Clarke (27:27.062)
the kind of dealing with like growing up with a traumatized individual and kind of that aspect of listening versus like business listening, I guess what's the connection and carry over there?

Christine Miles (27:33.676)
Hmm.

Christine Miles (27:39.042)
Well, it's really the same thing because we're all people. if I'm, you know, if I'm an employee, yeah, look, I want to, I want my employees to feel valued and understood. Frankly, it earns me the right to ask more of them to, to help them raise their own game in terms of their own professional growth and be the best person they want to be. So there's all that. And then if you just go into a customer or sales meeting, if you don't, the first thing to tell you in every sales training is understand your

Lucas Clarke (27:41.88)
Yeah, fair enough.

Christine Miles (28:06.968)
customers problems, pains, and needs. If you don't get that, you can't sell. And guess what they do to train you how to do that?

30 minutes if you're lucky. It's got to listen, two ears, one mouth, use it in proportion. When in fact the most sales conversions happen when it's 43 57, because it's an exchange, it's a dialogue. Because when you're guiding the speaker, you're participating in the dialogue. You're just not telling. People don't like to be told what to do. So if I just go in and sell a solution, I'm telling.

Lucas Clarke (28:16.97)
You gotta lift.

Yep.

Lucas Clarke (28:32.682)
Okay.

Lucas Clarke (28:41.837)
Mm-hmm.

Christine Miles (28:46.68)
But if I'm in an exchange of understanding you and understanding you and listening to you in a different way, we're in a different kind of communication paradigm. And that's not just me being silent.

Lucas Clarke (28:57.24)
Yeah, because I tried to put myself into times that like I've been sold to. Because again, I don't have like experience in sales. Obviously, I'd love everyone to listen to this podcast. Yeah.

Christine Miles (29:05.347)
Hmm.

you're a teen, you're in teaching you every day is sales for you every day is sales for you. you kidding me? Parents, kids, principals of you are in a high sales field. You just don't know it.

Lucas Clarke (29:15.088)
That's true people need

Lucas Clarke (29:21.944)
That is true. I'm always trying to buy, or I guess, am I buying your ears? Am I selling information to your ears? I don't know. That's what I'm always trying to do.

Christine Miles (29:31.16)
You're trying to get them to believe in and buy into the information you're selling or the way you're approaching that. Yeah. Yeah. I was in denial. I was in sales most of my career, you know, because I thought I helped people. That's what I did. I made a difference, but, I do, but I'm selling concept ideas, trying to get people to believe what I believe. So that's all selling. You're trying to get your, your wife's trying to get new siding on the house. She's selling if you don't agree with her.

Lucas Clarke (29:35.702)
Yes.

Lucas Clarke (29:55.789)
Yeah.

I love it. And I'm not sure how much you've potentially even looked into this at all. like I know I had a conversation today with a friend of mine who excellent English teacher and in ELA there's like it's like reading, writing, speaking. But there's also a listening outcome. And so the running joke even even for myself, like if I were to go into

Christine Miles (29:58.754)
Yep.

Lucas Clarke (30:27.896)
trying to assess you for a listening outcome. Like I've never personally taught like high school ELA myself, so I haven't had put that much thought into it. But I guess, what do you look for on like, how would you test like a 15 year old of like, are you listening properly? And I know that's not like the easiest question, because that's what we're always kind of figuring out but.

Christine Miles (30:33.048)
Yeah.

Christine Miles (30:40.024)
Yeah.

Christine Miles (30:47.886)
Well, it's actually, yeah, I thought, well, it's the same thing that I just described in sales training is that it's an expectation, but we don't teach them how. So how can you test on something you don't teach? So most, this is the gap that I'm seeking to fill is that we don't educate children around the world, not just in the States or in Canada, how to listen. That we expect them to do it and we qualify it or quantify it by are they paying attention?

Lucas Clarke (30:58.264)
Mm-hmm.

Christine Miles (31:17.964)
Are they making eye contact? they participating in the dialogue in the classroom, right? Versus do they really know how to listen? We did an in-service for teachers last year and I asked, do they teach listening? Some of the teachers are like, we focus on having the kids put both feet on the floor, making sure they're making eye contact. That's all about paying attention. We're showing that you're paying attention. That's not about listening.

Listening is being able to understand the meaning of what is said, not just what is said, and to understand what hasn't been said in that context. So this is where we're looking at those ELA standards from second grade to high school and showing how we can marry those two, because we teach the how, we teach the skill of and how to actually find that understanding rather than guess at it.

Lucas Clarke (32:02.039)
Mm-hmm.

Lucas Clarke (32:12.728)
And I like what you said there, because it's interesting to me that they kind of automatically went into where your feet and your eyes are. So I find even sometimes when I'm talking, like I guess like how much eye contact, like I guess how much are you really thinking about body language in terms of being a good like is, is there certain types of body language that embodies like a better listener?

Christine Miles (32:24.611)
Mm-hmm.

Christine Miles (32:35.085)
Mm-hmm.

Christine Miles (32:42.328)
Well, if I did this and we had the conversations, it's not great, right? body language is a step in the right direction in terms of I'm going show, I'm going to have a better chance at listening if I'm looking at you and that's great, but this is barely scratching the surface. So the real key to body language is that I watch yours.

Lucas Clarke (32:47.86)
It's not great, yeah.

Lucas Clarke (32:56.184)
Mm-hmm.

Christine Miles (33:11.798)
Not that I face you. If I'm on the phone, I'm listening for body language. I'm listening with my eyes. We teach kids listen with your eyes, ears, and heart, and then how to do that. And there's three responses that, you know, through the path that you look for from the speaker to even see if you understand. When you know what they are, you're in a different paradigm because the speaker will tell you, the teacher will tell you, the principal will tell you, your classmate will tell you if you know what you're looking for.

It's like, do you remember those little, those highlight books? Like where's the lion and the bear and the, once you've seen where they are, you don't know what I'm talking about.

Lucas Clarke (33:48.062)
Yes, I probably do. I'm not sure.

Christine Miles (33:50.944)
It's, you know, it's like a coloring book and you have to find the lion and you have to find the bear. Yeah. So once you know where they are, you see them right away. But at first it's like, I don't know where the bear is. So, but once you know what to look for, once you're trained to do that, then you, then you know how to do it. And then you, that's what you can hold the standard to. So just like I said, most people start a story or talking about something in the middle. Once you know that you just know, have to go back.

Lucas Clarke (33:54.88)
OK, yes, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Christine Miles (34:20.482)
You know it, you know how to do it. It's just a skill, but we're not trained up on that. We're going into the woods with our good intentions.

Lucas Clarke (34:22.488)
Mm-hmm.

Lucas Clarke (34:30.368)
And so I'm curious now because in order to be a good listener, someone has to be talking. And I find that most people, I would say, struggle with some degree of social anxiety. And I would say even post-COVID, there's like people are so anxious about kind of real conversation. Like I see students.

Christine Miles (34:45.26)
Hmm.

Christine Miles (34:49.998)
Hmm.

Christine Miles (34:55.426)
Mm-hmm.

Lucas Clarke (34:56.704)
And I see like other teachers with myself like we'll have not like shallow conversation, but like, hey, how's it going? Like good chats. I guess if maybe implicitly going through this researching and speaking about listening, like what have you learned maybe potentially differently about communication or even trying to just lessen the anxiety of conversation.

Christine Miles (35:17.972)
Yeah, there is. We do have an anxious generation, don't we? Yeah. So do I? So my psychology brain went off. I'm sorry. do I think so? That was an interesting statement that most people have anxiety. I don't know that I agree with that, but I do think I think that anxiety is very real. And I think that we aren't a bitch. We're not raising. We're not raised to have to be social.

Lucas Clarke (35:22.358)
Yeah.

Lucas Clarke (35:29.548)
No, that's fine.

Lucas Clarke (35:37.026)
Okay, yeah.

Christine Miles (35:47.414)
as much anymore. mean, I don't want to leave my house to get something from the store. And I'm an extrovert. So if it can land on my door. So if I'm more, if I don't, if I'm in a stage in my life as in childhood where I don't have to leave my room to have social interaction or perceive social, I'm not going out of the room. The phone has brought the world to us, but not the real world. So we're not, we're not adapting. We're not flexing that muscle where we're

Lucas Clarke (35:52.792)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Christine Miles (36:16.288)
needing to engage and get comfortable with talking and speaking and listening because we're in these kind of isolated bubbles, you know, playing video games with friends, but not in the same room. You know, I'm not saying that has to all be thrown out. It's just the more time we spend doing that and the less time we spend doing the old style of communication.

Lucas Clarke (36:27.671)
Yeah.

Lucas Clarke (36:40.248)
Mm-hmm.

Christine Miles (36:40.802)
that muscle's atrophied. So of course there's more anxiety. You know, the first time you do anything, it's a little more stressful. Yeah. Does that make sense?

Lucas Clarke (36:47.799)
And absolutely, because I think the conversational muscle, think being a teacher, like it is almost 100 % a social job. Like, yeah, you do your marketing and stuff on the side, but six hours a day, I am face to face with someone or with 30 people at pretty much any given time. And so I think like, I guess, I guess what I'm kind of looking for is if you were to have a conversation about

Christine Miles (36:58.978)
Yeah.

Christine Miles (37:04.928)
Yeah. Yep.

Lucas Clarke (37:16.566)
this topic with someone I guess tomorrow their next conversation, what do you what should they be doing differently?

Christine Miles (37:24.182)
Yeah. Would that be a young like some a student of yours? that just to? Yeah. So so the first thing I'd be thinking is what you said earlier, which is let's look at the costs of not doing this well. OK, because and it's an invisible problem, because if you don't know what it is to listen, if you've been told to listen and not taught, you know, we have two legs. We learn to walk. People figure you have two ears. You learn to listen, right? It doesn't work that way.

Lucas Clarke (37:28.317)
Just even, yeah, sure.

Lucas Clarke (37:49.984)
Yeah.

Christine Miles (37:52.61)
So it's nobody's fault that we don't understand this, but I did title the book, Problem, because you can't solve a problem you don't know you have. So if you think about, the first thing is, think about the last time somebody didn't listen to you. How did it feel? That usually gets thoughts going. But then if you go, but when was the last time you were the one who didn't listen? And how do you think, did you notice? And how did that make them feel? So let's get.

our arms around, maybe we need to address this one. And then two is there's lots of ways to upskill to this for for adults. You know, they they can read my book, they can read other books. I've tried to make it simple and fun because I I'm dyslexic and so I can paint pictures in my mind. And if something's too complicated, I can't figure it out. So I need simple. So simple is very important to me when I created the listening path. Fun is very important because play is, you know,

Listening is process of discovery. It's supposed to be fun. So there's lots of ways to upskill the kids. We have to get to them early, which is why I created the classroom program so that we could teach them the language of listening when they're six instead of 36, instead of 46. Like I often say, do you want to go skiing for the first time at 36 or six? Like I'd rather get on the slope early so I can learn to go down the mountain and be fearless. So

Lucas Clarke (38:53.048)
Yep.

Lucas Clarke (38:59.072)
Yeah. Yeah.

Lucas Clarke (39:06.434)
Yeah.

Christine Miles (39:18.284)
That's really what it's going to take, but we need to create a common language around that. And that's what the path does. It's a common language for listening.

Lucas Clarke (39:26.024)
Yeah, and it's funny as you're saying that, like you're sparking stories in my brain too, because I guess like since my dad passed away, like my family's gone through some turmoil and I've shared some information on that here in the podcast in the past. But like long story short, like some relationships have dwindled like as a result of this and like talking to people individually.

Christine Miles (39:38.722)
you

Christine Miles (39:44.022)
Hmm sure

Lucas Clarke (39:50.168)
I'm like, you guys just aren't listening to each other. Like, I hear what both of you are saying and I can kind of, I think I can kind of unpack the non-offensive version of what they're saying to that person. Like, this is what they're actually feeling when they're saying this. I'm not a therapist by any means, but I do feel like they'll hear what I'm saying.

Christine Miles (39:52.141)
Yeah.

Christine Miles (40:02.978)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Lucas Clarke (40:14.456)
And then they said, no, it's this thing that I said before, which it's actually not. But I just told you that's the case. I think that's something that's, yeah, it's underrated, I think, to try to, even if you potentially were to not even come across your work, just understanding that listening can be done differently, that there's ways to think about doing it.

Christine Miles (40:16.364)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Christine Miles (40:33.301)
Yeah.

Yeah. And even if you do one thing better, it's a huge step in the, like, look at the impact. Tell me more about that. Even with the about that hat on you. it's, you know, a similar story. had a friend of mine, this was a few years ago. She had read my book and I'm like, you read my book. Wasn't that nice? But we were at a, I had a Christmas party and she came over and she said, I was picking my kid up from school and he's like eight, a boy, 19 years old from college.

Lucas Clarke (40:44.32)
Yeah, yep, yep.

Lucas Clarke (41:02.872)
Yeah.

Christine Miles (41:04.0)
And she was going through a divorce at the time. And she said, he said something. And I thought there's more there. And I almost panicked. And she said, and I thought about your book and all the things you said in your book. She goes, all I could remember was tell me more. So she said, she had this like mini crisis of dialogue. And she said, he's going to think it's so weird if I say that. And she goes, but I just went, tell me more. And she goes, he talked for 15 minutes. I got like it all. And she's like, I couldn't believe it. And that was one.

Lucas Clarke (41:17.962)
Hahaha

Lucas Clarke (41:29.527)
Yep.

Christine Miles (41:33.934)
question. That's not the whole listening system. That's not one thing. One move can change the game.

Lucas Clarke (41:40.344)
Well, it's almost like you're really saying, I give you permission to pour it out to me, right? That's what you're saying. It's what's not being said, but you're pretty much like, you and I are here. Like, tell me more. Like, tell me what it is that we can go into a little bit deeper. And I'm not sure if we've touched on this or not, but I found it interesting looking at some of your work and it says like, you're a listening persona. So what is it that you potentially mean by like,

Christine Miles (41:46.21)
Yeah, yes.

Christine Miles (41:52.086)
Yeah, yeah, that's right.

Christine Miles (42:05.358)
Mmm.

Lucas Clarke (42:09.912)
Like are there different potentially tight, not like listening better, but types of listeners? Is that kind of where you're going with that angle?

Christine Miles (42:16.814)
It's more so, it's a good question in timing because of what you just shared about the family dynamics and what gets said and what's meant and all that stuff. So your brain has, you have your conscious brain and you have your subconscious brain. Okay. The things you're aware of, if you look at an iceberg is above the water, very small portion of your brain. Your subconscious brain is a beast, but it's all the unknown things and all the things you're not aware of.

Lucas Clarke (42:26.283)
Mm-hmm.

Lucas Clarke (42:45.368)
Mm-hmm.

Christine Miles (42:45.582)
in your mind. So our subconscious brain is in charge of us most of the time, both emotionally and when we're listening, because we're it's not it's the things out of our awareness. It's our impulses, our memories, our thoughts, our feelings. So so that really mucks up listening. It's very murky down there. Right. And so when we listen, similarly, our brain has one of two personas and that one is it's a defense attorney. So it

Lucas Clarke (42:54.902)
Yep.

Christine Miles (43:14.606)
takes all the things in our subconscious and we hear something and we jump to conclusions and we ask questions and we start going down a path to prove our case rather than to let the story unfold, which is what you just said about. It's really saying, I want to know more. want to know you. The curious detective is the other persona. That person doesn't jump to conclusions and just lets the story come to them and let that person, you guide them, but you still open it up.

Lucas Clarke (43:32.215)
Mm-hmm.

Lucas Clarke (43:43.404)
Mm-hmm.

Christine Miles (43:43.756)
So our thoughts and feelings contaminate the story that we hear, which is why we misunderstand each other so much. And our defense attorney takes that little bit of information and goes, I'm going to jump on that. And I'm going to tell you what I think. And I'm going to ask you questions that are probably not related to what you really need to tell me.

Lucas Clarke (43:48.92)
Hmm.

Lucas Clarke (43:56.716)
Mm-hmm.

Lucas Clarke (44:02.91)
Yeah, and I feel like the unrelated questions, think, well, I think that comes from a place when you are, because I guess you're kind of going into a lane of arguing in a sense of like arguing to win versus arguing to have a palatable solution for both parties. Like that's a very different kind of dynamic there as well. And so for we're kind of like wrapping up a bit here, but I guess.

Christine Miles (44:15.726)
Mm-hmm.

Christine Miles (44:19.756)
Yeah.

Lucas Clarke (44:28.728)
I had one of the questions where it was like, what are the signs that someone is not listening to you? I guess even maybe because I guess I've been in situations where like you're almost kind of want to trauma dump a little bit. Like you kind of want it. You're you know what? I feel like you're safe. But then you kind of climb up because you're like, OK, like they're not listening to me anymore. And so I don't know if I necessarily have a question there. But I guess what have you? Is there anything that you think that you can add to that?

Christine Miles (44:34.561)
Yeah.

Christine Miles (44:46.551)
Yeah.

Christine Miles (44:54.936)
Well, it looks a lot of different ways. So sometimes, you're like, I'm looking at you directly now, not the camera. But then if I go like this, like, who else is in the room? So I'm looking away. So it's like, that's one way. The other way is to, so what? Your father died. It's OK now, right? Or this is what was meant to happen. Or just read, that's a defense attorney move to say, I'm going to

Lucas Clarke (45:05.161)
Yes, yep.

Mm-hmm.

Lucas Clarke (45:13.618)
Yeah. Yeah. They're almost trying to end the conversation. Yeah.

Christine Miles (45:24.878)
tell you what the story is, not the story you're actually telling me. It's again, often out of our own not liking the uncomfortableness of that you had a loss and you're in pain. But that's a form of not listening. Arguing is a form of not listening. You you jumping in to tell your story versus listening to mine. There's a lot of ways we don't listen to one another. But one of the most critical ways to figure that out is ask the person.

Because you know it when you're not being listened to, don't you? Like if I call Pottery Barn and the customer service, and I'm not picking on Pottery Barn by any means, the customer service person goes off a script and I know it, how I, that's not a good feeling, it? Versus, you know, if they say, yeah, yeah, and blah, blah, blah, here's my script, I'm not in a good paradigm because I know they're not actually listening.

Lucas Clarke (45:57.016)
Yeah.

Lucas Clarke (46:02.806)
Yeah.

Lucas Clarke (46:08.267)
Yes.

Lucas Clarke (46:20.352)
Yeah, the social scripting is definitely real with that. And so I guess to finish off with our listeners here, we have the questions, we have the power of properly interrupting people. And I guess if you were given the mic, go out on stage for one minute, and you only had one minute to say, this is how we can listen better, what is it that you would say?

Christine Miles (46:25.869)
Yeah.

Christine Miles (46:41.07)
Yeah.

Christine Miles (46:47.618)
Okay. I would say that saying the words I understand have nothing to do with the person feeling understood and very little to do with understanding. So take that out of your vocabulary. let's show you say, Hey, Christine, my father died. was 22. Yeah, that's supposed to be tough. I understand. Do you feel understood?

Lucas Clarke (47:15.128)
you

Christine Miles (47:16.302)
Like how could I possibly like I understand or I'm arguing with my partner or my boyfriend or my spouse or whatever. And I go, yeah, yeah, I understand. But there's no nothing to that's like, I'm sorry. If you say you're sorry, it's like, okay, but what for? Like, what does it mean? take the, cause the only person that can tell you whether you understand or not is the person that needs to feel understood. So that's different. So

Lucas Clarke (47:17.821)
It's like, the solution is here.

Lucas Clarke (47:42.936)
Mm-hmm.

Christine Miles (47:45.064)
Rather than saying, understand, it's a harder skill. takes some practice, but we call this the flashlight on the path. You need to shine a light on what you understand. So tell the story back to the person that they just told you. The most powerful story you can tell someone is their own. So rather than I understand, Lucas, I don't know a lot about you, but it sounds like you were pretty young when you lost your dad.

Lucas Clarke (48:11.544)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Christine Miles (48:12.916)
It sounds like it was traumatic. don't know all the details. But I imagine it, from what I'm hearing, it had a really profound impact not only on you, but your extended family, because some relationships have been lost and fractured as a result of this kind of untimely death. And it's changed your life. Yeah.

Lucas Clarke (48:31.928)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah, and I feel like as you're saying that, I'm like, now I have these nine stories that I can go into with this. So I totally see like you're kind of actually summarizing it as a story that's completed. So Christine Miles, absolutely. All right, well, Christine Miles, it was an absolute pleasure having you on the podcast here today.

Christine Miles (48:44.78)
Yeah. Mm hmm. It's a more powerful experience, isn't it? That just I understand. Yeah.

Christine Miles (48:58.094)
Likewise, I appreciate being here.