#068 - George Couros | Embrace Contrarian Thinking: The Key to Effective Delegation and Growth Artwork

Mr. Clarke After Dark

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Mr. Clarke After Dark

#068 - George Couros | Embrace Contrarian Thinking: The Key to Effective Delegation and Growth

October 28, 2024 • Lucas Clarke

George Couros is currently an Educational Consultant, author of several books including What Makes a Great Principal and has worked as both a Teacher and Administrator in Alberta, Canada for more than a decade. On the episode, expect to learn about the depression of Canadian winters and his recent move to Florida, how he has lost over one hundred pounds three times, cheese whiz sandwiches, what it means to have a great Principal and the different styles they can have, the proper way to interview teachers, a contentious interview for an administrator position with a surprising result, hiring people who think differently from you, how a great principal does not necessarily need to have been a great teacher, how to delegate your responsibilities amongst your administration staff, how to properly market yourself as a leader before applying for leadership positions, the importance of going out of your way to connect with people, removing barriers for teachers, Canadian heritage moments and how he was there for the famous Kawhi Leonard shot, what the students are beginning to believe about education that they did not twenty years ago, tradition vs. innovation in teaching, simplifying the expectations for your school, The Littlest Hobo, and, much more! Thanks for tuning in and hope you enjoy the show!

You can follow George on all platforms through his website: georgecouros.com

Thoughts shared on the podcast are purely our own and do not represent the views of the Anglophone South School District or the relevant jurisdictions associated with my guests.

Lucas Clarke (00:00.926)
Alright, George Corros. How's it going, sir? Living the dream.

George Couros (00:03.596)
Hey, what's up? Happy Saturday. I don't know about living a dream,

Lucas Clarke (00:08.066)
Down in Florida? I mean, I feel like that seems like living the dream to me.

George Couros (00:11.182)
Yeah, well, I'll tell you, as someone who spent what, 47 years of his life in Canada, if I never see snow again, I'll be fine. Yeah, I'll just... You know, it's funny because my mom, she's an immigrant from Greece to Canada, and when I told her I was moving, I'm the baby in the family, so I thought there was gonna be like this, how could you leave me?

Lucas Clarke (00:19.352)
you

Okay, really? I think I'd miss it, but...

Lucas Clarke (00:37.739)
Yeah.

George Couros (00:38.574)
I like, dare you move away and stuff like that. And so she, she, think she would, she came to Canada, maybe she was like 25 ish around there. And she said to me, she goes like, I basically spent like almost 60 years here and I've never got used to the cold. Can I like come visit you? I'm like, you can come whenever you want. So she was like, this is a vacation for me. So I've seen my mom.

Lucas Clarke (00:48.737)
Mm

Lucas Clarke (00:59.758)
You

Lucas Clarke (01:04.201)
Yes.

George Couros (01:05.806)
more in the last two years than I probably saw her the 10 years. She's like, she just comes here and visits all the time. She had no interest in seeing me before, but now I'm like, now I'm cool again to her. I think, I don't know if it's like, yeah, so I think it's just, it's like the weather, you know, I think too in, you know, I know you're, you were in Northern Alberta and I wasn't as far as you, the light.

Lucas Clarke (01:09.452)
You

Lucas Clarke (01:17.252)
yeah, it's like you've got the exotic landscape.

George Couros (01:34.574)
being from like 4 a to where we were till 11 p I didn't mind that to be honest with you. It was the dark. It was the dark. That's where and so I you know probably probably had some like seasonal depression didn't even know it. You know what mean? And it's like it's kind of like it's kind of around the same time all year here like it's you know we're like a little bit it's probably within an hour or two so it is you know it's it's just different and I

Lucas Clarke (01:36.92)
Yeah.

Lucas Clarke (01:42.388)
It was hard to get used to. Yeah.

Lucas Clarke (01:49.922)
Hahaha

Lucas Clarke (01:56.429)
Yeah.

George Couros (02:02.466)
I remember saying when, you if I ever moved to a warm climate, like I, I'm going to run all the time and you know, a lot of people say stuff like that and then they get the opportunity, but I actually run all the time now. So it's something I really love doing. I'm not good at it, but I, I like doing it. So.

Lucas Clarke (02:18.274)
And that's what I've always found too, because I've dabbled in running. said a few years ago, David Goggins was kind of all the rage and I watched him go on and I was like, you know what? Maybe I can run more. And I ran like four miles and destroyed my feet. had stress fractures like crazy. It was awful. I guess what, because I saw that you went through a pretty transformational weight loss as well from what, and so like.

George Couros (02:27.554)
Yeah. Yeah.

George Couros (02:36.462)
So.

Yeah.

George Couros (02:43.97)
Yep, yep, yep.

Lucas Clarke (02:45.89)
I guess what sparks that why running and like convince me to be a runner even though I'm not.

George Couros (02:50.622)
I would never convince anybody. When he said that about your feet, like my toes are on one foot are just messed up. Like they're all over the place and blisters all the time and stuff like that too. it's, and to me, like I would never try to convince, honestly, I would never try to convince anyone to become a runner. I would try to convince anybody to like find something active that they love doing. You know, whether that's, know, like weightlifting, playing sports, things like that too. I really, I enjoy, I think

Lucas Clarke (02:52.458)
Ha ha!

Lucas Clarke (02:58.345)
Hahaha

Lucas Clarke (03:12.044)
Yeah.

George Couros (03:20.162)
You know, I enjoy running, but I hate it some days. Like I'm already tomorrow is like Sunday is my long run. And I always kind of dread it a little bit and then you get it done. And then, you know, I like people are like, you know, I was so happy when it was done. And it's like a lot of times I'm like, nah, it was horrible. That sucked. You know, I was. Yeah. Yeah. But I find, I find it just is a really, it's almost a meditational thing for me. I, I really get a lot of my ideas.

Lucas Clarke (03:33.164)
It's like I don't actually enjoy it at all for the most part.

George Couros (03:47.992)
You know, I get made fun of because I always do like these sweaty videos after. and you know, if you're like really bothered by that, you know, maybe you're, maybe you need to get out a little bit more too. Like, you bothered by someone sweating? Cause they're exercising hard. Like, you know, so I just find it really clears my mind. lot of my best ideas have come from, from running the, the weight loss thing. I don't want to really attribute it to running because the reality of it is

Lucas Clarke (03:57.985)
Yeah

Yeah.

Lucas Clarke (04:14.797)
Mm

George Couros (04:17.866)
I've always exercise. I've always like, I've always been an active person, but I, you know, you're, you always want to hope that you can eat whatever you want if you're active. And that's not how it is. The older you get, the harder it is to eat whatever you want. So really got my health and you know, my, my diet in check. And, it was for me basically saying like, I didn't go on any crash diet. didn't do any fat or anything like that. said, okay, what do I need to do today that I could do?

Lucas Clarke (04:29.23)
Yeah. Nope.

Lucas Clarke (04:43.928)
Mm

George Couros (04:47.278)
a year from now and continue with. So that was really important to me because I've actually, I'm a little yo -yo weight guy. I've lost 100 pounds, I think three times. So like, so like, I think it was like my early 20s I did it and my 30s I did it. So this is probably the longest I've maintained it and I think it was really, honestly, and this is...

Lucas Clarke (04:50.753)
I care.

Lucas Clarke (05:01.358)
What?

George Couros (05:15.17)
This is maybe like a Canadian thing, because I don't know what the US of yours. One of the times I lost weight was when I was like a kid and I, all I ate was cheese with sandwiches. I don't know what happened then. And a lot of people have like, what is cheese with? Like if you're in the US, you have like cheese product. So I don't know what happened then.

Lucas Clarke (05:17.111)
You

Lucas Clarke (05:32.685)
Man.

Lucas Clarke (05:36.332)
There's nothing like cheese whiz

George Couros (05:41.612)
But yeah, like I still maintain that same diet and the reality of it, I've talked about this quite a bit during, I always wanted to lose weight. I was always trying to lose weight and honestly, very surface level reasons. I want to look better. Do you mean? And that's not really, you know, like everyone wants to look better.

Lucas Clarke (05:58.902)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Lucas Clarke (06:03.128)
Like I'm eating these cheese with sandwiches, I'm enjoying it, but you know what? There's gotta be more.

George Couros (06:06.284)
Yeah, yeah. But I think when what really was the switch was when COVID happened, you a lot of people were the number one comorbidity of people dying with it was obesity. So I'm like, if I actually get COVID right now, I am not in a good space. Like I could be in massive trouble. And now this is not just about me. Like I have little kids. So I better figure this out real quick.

Lucas Clarke (06:28.12)
Mm

Lucas Clarke (06:31.34)
Yeah.

George Couros (06:34.198)
So I think that was for me, like a kind of an awake moment. Yeah.

Lucas Clarke (06:38.35)
Yeah. Three times losing a hundred pounds is wild, but I feel like that's literally every single person that's ever gone through. Like if you have the capacity for a massive weight loss, like transformation, typically it's you go through a few cycles of that. Cause I've even had like, like 60 pound drops and I've fluctuated too, but I've never had that big of a fluctuation. That's kind of crazy. But for your work in the education game, because I was actually speaking with, Jennifer Gonzalez from cult of pedagogy and she is, she's the one that, actually like

George Couros (06:44.685)
Mm

George Couros (06:56.994)
Yeah.

George Couros (07:04.61)
Yeah, yeah, so.

Lucas Clarke (07:08.27)
introduced you to me. So kind of got to know your stuff. And for the most part, most of your work is focused on principles. Like I mean, like the physical position of being a principal. So kind of why that is pardon

George Couros (07:12.312)
Okay.

George Couros (07:19.106)
Yep. A -L not E -L -E. A -L not L -E.

Lucas Clarke (07:27.425)
yes, yeah. So I guess for what kind of like going into education, why target that role specifically in most of your work?

George Couros (07:36.268)
Yeah, it's not, don't think, I don't think necessarily it's principles as much as it's leadership. Like when you take care of adults, think principle specifically that role. And like I always try to, I'm always trying to phrase this the proper way. Cause I don't want to deter anyone from like how important their position is, but principles are really crucial to education in the sense that they have the most authority closest to children.

Lucas Clarke (07:53.229)
Mm

George Couros (08:04.266)
So for example, let's say, and I'm sure you've seen this, you know, in your experience as an educator, you have a principal who's not really that great, but is like good with families, you know, has good communication skills. They can kind of get away with not being great. And it doesn't matter like, you know, how things are going there too. And, know, one of the, one of the like red flag answers, cause I asked this when I taught teachers, I'll say like, Hey, how's your principal? And there's like, like, there's little things. And one of them is like,

they're great. They just let me do whatever I want. Or they're really nice. Those are not great. Those are not good answers to me. Right? Like really nice is, you know, not a great answer. Let me do whatever I want. I can actually understand why that answer seems really exciting because they might've been in a situation where there was a micromanage principle and it's like, just leave me alone. Like you don't know what you're doing. And I think it's really,

Lucas Clarke (08:40.142)
You

George Couros (09:03.21)
I, know, Alison Apsley and I wrote What Makes a Great Principle together. And the reason I wrote that book is I don't know if I knew the impact of having a great principle. I don't really think I understood it until I got one. And then it really changed things for me. Like I never was like, my principle sucks. But when I had an amazing principles, like, wow, this hugely makes a difference. Like this

Lucas Clarke (09:20.717)
Okay.

Lucas Clarke (09:27.192)
So what was the amazing part of that specific individual that kind of stuck out or.

George Couros (09:31.104)
Yeah, and actually, and I wrote about, I was really excited because I was able to share that book with her name is Kelly Wilkin. She was a principal in Parkland. And weirdly enough, I only had her for a year. Like I was only, I had her for a year. I was going to quit education. I hated teaching. I was like, okay, I'm going to give it one last try at this new job, see how goes. And I went from like, I'm going to quit to I became an assistant principal the next year. Like, which is,

couldn't believe that was where my path had gone. And it would have never gone there if it wasn't for her. There's no way. And then, you know, two years later I'm principal. And then two years after that, I'm, you know, training leadership, doing leadership development, focusing on innovation and just, you know, totally changed a trajectory. And it was really kind of how she, I always like, I'm always cautious of this. I don't want her to say she make me like, she made me feel valued.

Lucas Clarke (10:03.01)
Mm

George Couros (10:29.74)
She, cause like there's things you can make people feel that are not real. She truly valued. She tried, like, you know, like you can say all the nice things, but then it's like, we really love your feedback. It's really important to us. But then they know people never act on it. You know what I mean? So like that's, might feel something, but it doesn't really matter. And like one of the stories I shared in what makes great principle, she brought me in. So when I had the interview or that school,

Lucas Clarke (10:35.003)
Mm What do you mean by that?

Lucas Clarke (10:45.539)
Yeah.

George Couros (10:58.988)
It was very different from what I experienced before in interviews. Typically it's like a, like a firing squad, right? It's like one person, there's six people just throwing questions at you, trying to give you no feedback on how you're doing. And it's like, just, it's terrible. And you think about that. And what, like, when do you, when are you going to ever have that experience in like a school? That's, that's like, you're not replicating. So you're not necessarily really seeing the true interactions of what the dynamic would be.

Lucas Clarke (11:13.964)
That's very intimidating.

Lucas Clarke (11:21.048)
Mm

George Couros (11:27.49)
between people, because that's never, like, I've never had an interview like that. And then two months later, went through that same feeling, do you know what mean, in a school. So when she interviewed me, it was her and Carolyn Cameron, she was assistant principal who was also an amazing principal and assistant principal in her own right. And she's written several books, just absolutely incredible. They basically gave me a list of things, like topics that I'm...

Lucas Clarke (11:27.938)
Yeah.

Lucas Clarke (11:36.707)
Yeah.

George Couros (11:56.302)
would want to talk about. And it was given to me prior to the interview. And it wasn't just random lists. It was things that obviously they were important to the school. But it wasn't like, we're going to ask you these, here's 10 questions. It's like, hey, talk about this, talk about this. And the job I applied for was middle school teacher. It wasn't middle school math. It wasn't grade seven science. It was middle school teacher.

So we have this conversation and we're just talking and it was just like a dynamic of what you might have in a staff room having conversation and no word of a lie. Like I'm crying one minute, I'm laughing the other minute and I'm like, and I walked up and I'm like, what the heck just happened? Like, was so weird. Cause it was like, it felt normal. Like it felt just kind of like how you have a conversation with colleagues, you know, with your administrators and basically what they had done was they

Lucas Clarke (12:41.134)
You

Lucas Clarke (12:44.898)
Yeah.

George Couros (12:53.312)
And this, I know you referenced, I saw, you know, some of the things that you're talking about, really thinking about innovation, right? Innovation a lot of times is synonymous with technology, and which I totally have pushed against. It's really thinking about how we do things differently. So this interview process is totally different than anything I've ever experienced, but also kind of going through that process. The reason they didn't say grade seven math, you know, grade eight science,

Lucas Clarke (12:58.808)
Mm

Lucas Clarke (13:04.003)
Mm

George Couros (13:20.044)
because they probably, had someone who taught very specific things who I think went on a maternity leave, because that's what I was coming in to do. It was, let's find the best person that we can who meets the needs of what we can do as a school, and then we will kind of shape the position with them, right? Because like, if we can find someone that has something that we don't necessarily have,

that can really benefit. they, one of things that they needed was someone kind of focusing on educational technology, utilizing those things, connecting that. So they're, you know, they're kind of like putting these pieces. then, so then it wasn't, didn't get an immediate call. It was like, Hey, we think we want this guy. What, like, what, what pieces can we move in the school? So like probably wouldn't Excel teaching this, but he'd be fine teaching that. So can we get this person like, would they want to move? Would they want to try to change something?

Lucas Clarke (14:04.536)
Hmm.

George Couros (14:13.784)
So she was always looking for the best people. And sometimes when you like say like, hey, I want a five math teacher, right? You might have someone who could teach grade five math, who actually weirdly enough might want to teach grade five math, but you've never asked the question as an administrator. And so you kind of limit who you're getting as opposed to like, hey, we're looking for a new middle school teacher. And it's like, okay, what pieces can we fit in here? Like what things can we move around? Cause she's always looking to hire the best people. So then, you I got the call and

Lucas Clarke (14:29.015)
Yep.

George Couros (14:43.406)
And then just like she, I remember she gave me a schedule for like, basically it was halftime, you know, teaching math, teaching, I think social studies. And then the other half was basically working with other staff, thinking about education technology and the schedule she had created was basically I was going to be with grade six A for 40 minutes.

Lucas Clarke (14:58.36)
Classic.

George Couros (15:12.654)
And then grade six B for 40 minutes. Then I was going to be grade seven, a 40 minutes, seven B 40 minutes. And like, basically I was going to be with every teacher for 40 minutes for, you know, once a week and then come back the next week and do this. And I was like, this is, don't like this. This is not good.

Lucas Clarke (15:17.72)
Mm.

Lucas Clarke (15:34.247)
Hahaha!

George Couros (15:34.926)
I guess, like, it's like, you know, you're, you're, can't really build any momentum. You're not really kind of working with them. You're not getting the C purpose. It's going to be a person who does tech stuff for 40 minutes. And it's like, it's like, it's almost like bringing in a magician, right? Entertaining us for 40 minutes, right? So I said, you know, I don't know. I remember saying this, sir. I like, so I have no, I have no job security. I'm like,

Lucas Clarke (15:40.131)
Yeah.

Lucas Clarke (15:50.786)
Hahaha!

Lucas Clarke (15:55.022)
It's a great way of putting it.

George Couros (16:04.674)
She doesn't even like, she doesn't have to fire me. Like she just says, Hey, the person's back. Like that's it. Like it's done. Right. And I felt really comfortable with her because she created that space where, you know, you could ask her stuff. And I said, you know, I don't know about this schedule. Like, I don't know if this will work. And she's like, well, what would you do? I'm like, don't know. It's your job, right? You're the one doing schedule. And she's like, she's like, no, like if you have, if you think you have a better idea, what would you do? And I said, and then she's like, here,

Lucas Clarke (16:23.982)
Hahaha!

George Couros (16:33.388)
I'll give you a couple of days, come back and tell me what you do with that schedule. I was like, what? Like just little things like that were really weird. So I actually said, Hey, what I would like to do, can I have like two weeks with this teacher? And then like two weeks with this teacher. So we can do some like project based stuff can kind of dig into it and like really kind of tie into the curriculum, get to know them. And I said, I'll still like actually probably hit the same amount of minutes. might not be exact with every teacher, but instead of just me kind of popping in,

She's like, I love that. Yeah, go for it. Let's see how it goes. And so like, when you talk about the idea of being like feeling valued, she actually, like, you know, talent, she said, okay, come up with a solution. She implemented the solution. And even like at the end of the year, and really, when when that was happening, one of the things she really kind of like, I was really, I really want to do a good job, because now I was like, kind of trusted with the solution. So if the solution doesn't work, I can't blame the principal say like, you know, hey, this didn't work, because you made me do 40 minutes.

Lucas Clarke (17:31.598)
Sounds like a weird 180 on you. It's like, try it out.

George Couros (17:33.272)
Right now it's like, I'm like way more invested in how well this goes. And like there was times where I would be doing something on like a weekend or whatever, and that you would ask me to do. And I would be sitting there. I'm like, how she get me to do all this stuff? Like, how is this happening? Cause I, like, I would just do anything for her. And because, because like I saw the impact that I had and only, and this was not just me. Like I would like, I'd be lying if it said like,

She only made me feel this way. No one else felt this way in the school. This was just the way she ran things. And then at the end of the year, she said to me like, Hey, we have, basically this budget for technology and how would you spend it? I'm like, I'm a teacher. Like, why would you ask me this question? She's like, this is why we hired you. Like we hired you cause we don't know this stuff. So you tell me. So now I'm like, crap. Now I have to make the decision for other teachers and

Lucas Clarke (18:19.256)
You

George Couros (18:32.182)
So like if I'm going to make that decision, maybe I should go talk to the other teachers. Cause like, don't want them complaining to staff remote how the tech sucks. Cause I, so then she, know, so then I like said, here's what I would do based on this feedback that I've got. And so like, just made me so it's like things like that, where you see the impact you have on other classrooms. Like I said, that was, that was just something that she did really well. And you know, it made people want to do better. You know, they saw their value pass a classroom. And so like I said,

Lucas Clarke (18:39.448)
Yeah.

George Couros (19:02.444)
You know, I saw one of questions, you said, and I actually, don't know, did you read what makes script principle? Cause it was like interesting the question.

Lucas Clarke (19:08.042)
I read through the table of contents and read through some of the sample and the preface, but nothing actually through it.

George Couros (19:12.204)
Yeah. Yeah. Cause like the, I think literally the first question is that do schools need principals, right? Because probably there is a blog post that was written by a friend of mine. won't say their name. And it was like, do schools need principals? I'm a principal at this time. So I'm like kind of mad about this. like, how dare you ask this question? But like it was, and I remember having the conversation with this gentleman.

Lucas Clarke (19:31.669)
You

George Couros (19:41.036)
who I was very good friends with, said, the reason you are questioning this right now is because I don't think you like your principal. So I think you're making this like big narrative on education because you're, but I know the benefit of a really good principal to kind of bring. It's kind of like saying, you know, does a team need a coach? Right? Yeah, like it depends on the team, right? Like, you know, or actually I shouldn't say that depends on the coach.

Lucas Clarke (19:54.466)
Mm -hmm.

George Couros (20:10.956)
If you have a really good coach for any team, right? The coach will bring out the best you, but if the coach sucks, then you don't really need a coach. Do you know what mean?

Lucas Clarke (20:11.276)
Yes, that's it.

Lucas Clarke (20:17.954)
Well, because I almost find too in education specifically, people are always kind of looking for the way to argue why some certain positions aren't needed. And that's such a reflex and I don't understand. You can almost make the case, okay, if this one position wasn't here, what would the impact be? And I do find no one necessarily knows the value until they've had the one that kind of flips that perspective. Because in the experiences that I've had and the people that I've spoken to about education is that

George Couros (20:26.786)
Yeah, totally.

Yep.

George Couros (20:35.031)
Right.

Lucas Clarke (20:47.436)
The only thing I always come back to about what I ask is a valuable asset or skill for a vice principal or an administrator to have is action. That's all I've heard from them, but it doesn't even necessarily sound from your perspective, the one that you saw that action was the right one. It was just value. That's a very different kind of perspective there. And so why were you just kind of only there for a year? Like what kind of moved you away after?

George Couros (21:08.622)
Totally. Totally.

George Couros (21:15.116)
Well, and that's funny because she actually, she knew kind of like my bigger goal was to go the EdTech route, like, you know, be a EdTech for maybe Alberta education, kind of doing that. She knew that was kind of where I was going to go. And she had supported me in that. And that was like the thing that I really loved about her.

she was, she like always wanted to bring out the best of you. And if that meant she only had you for a year or two, she knew if she always cultivated that people that were always like really ambitious and aspiring would want to come to that school. And I remember actually she was getting pushed by, was, when I was a principal, someone was making fun of her and said like, you can't keep a teacher for like more than two years. Like they all leave you right away. Right. Cause like basically like so many of my colleagues in that school,

went on to curriculum instruction, went on to like principalships, went on to like superintendencies, right? And the teachers that stayed were like amazing, amazing teachers. Now, full transparency, some of the teachers that were there for one or two years, they just weren't that great and she would move them on, you know? And part of it was her belief was, I don't want anyone to be at a job that they despise, that they're not necessarily good at.

And you don't want to do that for 30 years. So it's not a good life to lead. Right. So it was like, it's like kind of out of camera. was like a Bernie Brown is like, you know, clear clarity is kindness or something like that. Like being consistent with this. So she, an assistant principal job came up in the middle of summer. And I, I, I remember like it was, you know, when like a assistant principal job comes up in the middle of summer, you know, something went wrong. Something's gone wrong there.

Lucas Clarke (22:44.12)
Mm

Lucas Clarke (23:00.344)
Yeah

George Couros (23:04.214)
Right? Up and up.

Lucas Clarke (23:04.672)
Yeah, yeah, something went down. No.

George Couros (23:08.588)
Yeah, like it's not it's not three months. I don't know. Like I don't know any of the background. And I said, Hey, like, would you mind if I applied for this? Because I like I don't I don't want to be an assistant principal. But I want to make sure the district knows I'm like interested in leadership position. So I just you know, probably good practice and like that. I would be honest to you. I think I got an interview because I don't think anyone was really looking at that time. Is it summer?

Lucas Clarke (23:13.858)
Yeah.

Lucas Clarke (23:37.226)
Yeah. It's like everyone's already got their positions for next year. Yeah.

George Couros (23:37.506)
You know what mean? It's like all the people, yeah, they're probably gone for vacation. I'm doing nothing and I'm like, that's interesting. This job came up so I might as well apply for it. So I actually had that interview. I got the interview, which I was like, that's weird. So I got the interview and I get in this interview and I...

Lucas Clarke (23:55.832)
Mm -hmm.

George Couros (24:01.982)
The gentleman's name is Archie Lilico, another amazing principal. I think again, I'm blessed to have this. So we're in there and you know, like, how's it going? Like all niceties, all that kind of stuff. Like I cannot remember anything like after about five minutes in, because we were like yelling at each other. It was the most strange experience I had ever. It was just like a back and forth. We were arguing. There was like an HR. Yeah, there's an HR manager there.

Lucas Clarke (24:04.652)
Mm -hmm. Yep.

Lucas Clarke (24:28.202)
Over what?

George Couros (24:32.498)
And I was like, and so I remember calling Kelly and I said, I said, I don't know who that, cause like it's in the same district. And I said, this, I said, that was the worst interview I've ever had in my life. Like after what I had with you and his, this is like, what, what is going on? Like I'm fighting with this guy. And she said, she said, you know what? I know Archie. I don't think it went as bad as you think it went. And I'm like, did you talk to me? She's like, no, no, no, but he's a little different. Just, just trust me.

Lucas Clarke (24:38.637)
Yeah.

Lucas Clarke (24:44.206)
You're just trying to enjoy your summer and put your name in there.

Lucas Clarke (25:01.58)
Okay.

George Couros (25:02.184)
Okay. So two, three days later, I get a phone call from him, you know, and it's kind of common courtesy, like, Hey, you know what, what I'm expecting? Hey, like, thanks for applying. You didn't get the job. We decided to go somewhere else. So he like called me and said, Hey, like, I just want to let you know, like, it was a pretty contentious interview and I actually would like to offer you the job. I'm like, what? I like throwing up because I'm ready for like a no. And he said in the interview, he said the thing that's really important to me is that,

Lucas Clarke (25:08.387)
Mm

Lucas Clarke (25:23.224)
Hahaha

George Couros (25:31.872)
in their interview process, I am looking for someone who will challenge me on the stuff that I'm saying, because I want to do an amazing job because he was like, he was a principal there, like, he had been hired as a principal, maybe two days earlier, when he got the job, right? So there's like, there's a whole admin change, right? He's coming new into this school. Okay, so

Lucas Clarke (25:54.296)
Okay. So really things had been going down.

George Couros (25:59.89)
And so then it was, so I have this and he goes, he goes, at the end of the day, if you don't agree with something I'm saying, you need to tell me, but behind closed doors. But when we go out there at the, make the final decision and whether you agree or not, you got to back me up because you can't be going behind my back and stuff like this too. Because if, if something goes wrong at the school, the superintendent is not calling you, they're calling me.

So I have to like live and die with the decision and I need your support on it too. But don't ever let me go out there thinking the idea is stupid and not saying anything. So was like, I got you. Like I could tell you your ideas are stupid all day if I believe that, right? So that was our relationship and it was really, really beneficial. There was, I never, I never hesitated to tell him that because he set the tone. His mentality was,

Lucas Clarke (26:37.996)
Hahaha!

Lucas Clarke (26:45.933)
Mm

George Couros (26:56.13)
Like I'm trying to hire someone who thinks differently than me, who maybe appeals to different people than I might appeal to. I don't need me. So anyways, like we're getting ready for the school year and meeting before the staff comes back. And one of the first days I meet one of our teachers, she's a veteran teacher, and literally two minutes later, like obviously it's me, her and I started fighting. We started going at it.

And I'm like, what is going on here? Like, why am I like getting in fights? So he's like, know of her, like I've never worked with her, but she's got a good reputation. So like, she's not bad. Just, just trust me, like give her some time. She's like, you know, we're new here. she's like, right, right. So anyways, like I got to know her really, really well. And she like would push on both myself and Archie.

Lucas Clarke (27:30.872)
You

Lucas Clarke (27:43.374)
You're like, I'm just trying to get to know these people and I'm just getting in scraps.

George Couros (27:54.214)
But she also has like tremendous influence with the staff. So if there is like a new thing that we wanted to try, something we want to implement, we would actually talk to her first. And we say like, what do think of this? And she's like, I don't like it. I'm like, why? So like this, this, this, I'm like, okay, can you give us a week? Like, we'll tweak some of these things. And then and then she would, and then we'd say, okay, based on what you said, here's the things that we've changed. What do think? Now? She's like, I love it. Well, of course she loved it because she sees her feedback throughout it, right?

Lucas Clarke (28:23.629)
Mm -hmm.

George Couros (28:24.652)
So then, so then when we would kind of introduce some new things, try some different things, she always had her back and she was like, yeah, right. And she would, and you know, people listened and trusted her. And the reality of is teachers, know, who they like listening to other teachers, principals who they like this to other principals. So when they know, when they know the dual role, so we knew this. So anyways, two years as assistant principal Archie's mentality was your role is not to be my assistant principal until you die. It's to develop you and to become a principal.

So two years later, I get my own school. The first person I hire is her, because I know she's going to do for me what I did for Archie. she didn't want to be. She didn't want to be. Right? But when I explained to her, like, I want you to come over with me to this. And he was like mad at me for bringing her because she was so good. Right? She's a great teacher. said, like, I know you will never let me do something dumb.

Lucas Clarke (29:02.19)
because she wanted to be an assistant principal after as well.

Lucas Clarke (29:15.406)
Yeah.

George Couros (29:22.986)
and I need that pushback and you just have a presence that you have a presence that is different from mine. yeah, like totally.

Lucas Clarke (29:23.053)
Mm

Lucas Clarke (29:29.762)
I think presence is a huge thing too. Like you can kind of get the same education. You can kind of get the similar kind of course work and all that stuff. But I even think I wrote one of my questions in there was, what is a principal outside of disciplining students, creating schedules and mastering spreadsheets? So like, what do you mean by presence? Like, I guess what was different, not even just in her, but how do you define that and what you look for?

George Couros (29:50.158)
What?

So at the time I'm 33 years old. I'm a big guy, I'm athletic. And I honestly, I think people were thinking I was gonna get another guy like me. She is probably forward in late 40s, very quiet, know, like just different demeanor. And like, I'll be honest with you, like sometimes a kid, like I always share this story when I was a grade four teacher.

Lucas Clarke (29:56.184)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.

George Couros (30:22.774)
I remember Marlene Burcham, amazing teacher. put first day of like before kids get there, she puts up like penguins with the names of kids and they're gonna like penguin class. Like I'm in the penguin class. They're excited about it, right? Now all of a sudden I feel guilty and I'm like, I gotta do something. So I love basketball. So what do do? Basketball class, right? So like I got a basketball with every kid's name.

Lucas Clarke (30:40.334)
You

George Couros (30:51.35)
And then like I talk about this that imagine a kid coming in there who hates sports. Who's like, my God, you have a year at this guy.

Lucas Clarke (31:02.811)
Yeah, I love penguins and I hate birds.

George Couros (31:03.586)
Like I hate sports so much. Right. So like, so it's just like little things like that too. And like, you know, that's why I really talked about the importance of like knowing who you serve. Like if you can plan your whole class for the year before your class ever walks in, then you're probably not doing a great job, right? Cause you like need to understand who, the people you are, you serve.

Lucas Clarke (31:21.947)
Mm

George Couros (31:24.654)
So I think it's just, you know, there's different dynamics. Like I'm not a big like, introverts are way better leaders than extroverts or extroverts are way better. I think there has to be kind of like, you know, different appeals, different mentalities, different strengths. Like one of the things that I truly loved about Cheryl is I, like for example, I did the student discipline when I was assistant principal, right? And I did it because Archie asked me to do it and that was kind of...

his viewpoint and he had worked basically with kindergarten grade five students, the majority of his career. And this was like a middle school and you know, or sorry, it's a K nine school. So most of your issues are going to be, you know, the older grades. And I had worked at that, you know, grade level prior. So he kind of was like, you know, it's not really my jam and you probably have a better understanding of this. So I did it. But when I became a principal,

Lucas Clarke (32:01.912)
Mm

Lucas Clarke (32:06.082)
Yep. Yep.

George Couros (32:21.314)
I'm like, I actually am really good at this. So I'm gonna keep the discipline stuff. Like all the discipline kits in the office, that's gonna be my jam. And she did stuff that I couldn't do. And weirdly enough, I never asked her to do anything because she just so complimented what I wasn't good at. And so she always like said, hey, I'll do this. I'm like, awesome.

Lucas Clarke (32:41.281)
Mm

Lucas Clarke (32:47.064)
So what did you recognize as your weaknesses?

George Couros (32:50.402)
Well, I think she's like her, she had a training in like special education, know, IPPs, IPPs, all that stuff, whatever they call them, wherever you're at right Right. Right. OPPs, whatever. like, so like just, that was not my thing. And I just, I'm not like, I can't stare at a screen. I'm not like, my thing is not mine. Mine's my big picture. She's more like my new details. And I'll be honest with you. She was like, she was a way better teacher than I ever was.

Lucas Clarke (32:58.294)
Yep. Different names everywhere, just for fun. Yeah.

George Couros (33:19.106)
and she had taught for longer, she had done this. And you know, there's like a lot of conversations like every principal has to be a great teacher. But if you end up going back to like a sports analogy, some of the best coaches were terrible players. And some of the worst coaches were amazing players. they're like, because they're like, yeah, because they don't they don't understand like how I'm Michael Jordan, how come you're not Michael Jordan? Well, you're Michael Jordan, right? So like, even even if you think about that in the mentality of

Lucas Clarke (33:30.444)
Yep. With the best players. That's true.

Lucas Clarke (33:41.494)
Yeah.

George Couros (33:45.602)
teachers, some of the best teachers in the profession were terrible students. And the reason they are so good is because they understand what a student struggles because they were the same kid. Whereas if you think, for example, like a math teacher, some of the most brilliant math minds in education cannot teach math effectively to students who do not understand, who just don't, math is not second nature. I was like, how do you not understand calculus? Right? So I just knew like, you know, it's just, she knew things that

Lucas Clarke (34:06.668)
Yep.

Yeah.

George Couros (34:13.388)
Like I didn't know she had like, you know, I, like I said, I was like way more boisterous. I was way more out there. was like playing basketball with the kids and stuff like that. She is more quiet and she, she went on to become like, it's funny because I didn't want to become an assistant principal and then became a principal. She didn't want to become a sister principal. She became an amazing principal. And so, but she just, you know, and I think when she hired, she probably hired people that had different skillsets because that was like the lineage of

Lucas Clarke (34:15.17)
Mm -hmm.

Lucas Clarke (34:35.501)
Mm

George Couros (34:43.628)
what we were trying to do in that situation. Just try to get someone who doesn't necessarily do the stuff that you do, right? And I think that's where it was like really kind of looking at this. I remember there was one, I can't remember what the one thing was, but it was like some planning, like I hated writing all the district stuff and blah, blah, you know, but some of it I did. Yeah, like actually think it was, like I think it was something like that.

Lucas Clarke (34:45.527)
Yep.

Lucas Clarke (35:05.088)
Yeah, school improvement planning and all that fun. Yeah.

George Couros (35:12.57)
And I was like, had this kind of streak of not asking her to do anything. And she would just do the stuff that I didn't want to do. She wasn't doing this one thing. And I remember like going to her to ask her to do it. And then she's like, Hey, do you want me to do that? I'm like, yes. Like I literally the one time I was going to ask her, she actually, as I'm walking down to her, she's like, Hey, I'll do that thing. I'm like, yeah. Okay. That's great.

Lucas Clarke (35:31.64)
Yeah.

Lucas Clarke (35:41.558)
man, I wanted to do that.

George Couros (35:42.452)
I would have totally, I would have done it so bad. So, and I think that that to me is a really important aspect of leadership is are you covering, you know, the places that you don't really understand that the areas that you need someone doing this to, right? So like even the, for example, the discipline thing, it shouldn't be the assistant principal does discipline because that's the role of the assistant principal. It's actually like who, who's the person that is maybe best at that?

Lucas Clarke (36:00.94)
Mm

George Couros (36:12.526)
and you know, would actually serve the school. And as a principal, you know, even though was typically a assistant principal role, I actually, not only was I good at it, I enjoyed doing it. I was like something that was, honestly, cause I was a terrible kid and like kids would do stuff, I'm like, is that all you did? Like, that was way worse than you. Way worse than you. So, you know, so I was like an understanding of it and yeah. And so, you know,

Lucas Clarke (36:20.814)
Mm

Lucas Clarke (36:30.235)
Nice

Lucas Clarke (36:39.214)
Mm

George Couros (36:40.778)
It was that that was part of the experience. I think that's really kind of like kind of shaped me seeing some of that stuff, because when you kind of go into different places, you're trying to show people, you know, things that they may not see, because they're so kind of involved in it, too. And that's what we really try to hire. And we also like and I'm very proud that many of the teachers that I worked with, we you know, they went on to like leadership positions. They went on to these things and.

Lucas Clarke (36:54.439)
Mm

George Couros (37:10.018)
The hope is that we put them in positions like Kelly put me in where they saw the ownership. One of the best pieces of advice I got from Kelly when I applied for that assistant principal position and I like I always try to share this with other people because you know, people go I know you you transition from you know, a teaching role to more of like a leadership role. Yeah, you know, like, you know, you know, you're you're you're doing a lot of work with adults to right? Like, it's not just students. So

Lucas Clarke (37:29.186)
Like a resource, yeah.

George Couros (37:38.868)
She said to me, we had what's called, and you might be familiar with like probably you'd like one of the few people I've ever talked to that would be familiar with this because you're from Alberta, right? They had one was called the teaching quality standard, right? And that's how you were as a teacher. Yeah, TQS. But then I think at the time it was like, they changed it. was like the principal quality standard, but I think it's like a leadership. Yeah. So like it changed, but it was principal quality standard. at the time.

Lucas Clarke (37:48.329)
Yeah.

Yes. yes. The TQS. yeah.

Lucas Clarke (37:59.714)
the leadership quality.

George Couros (38:05.581)
When I was there, she said, when I applied for SisterPrincess, I said, how should I shape my resume? She said, what I would do is I would go through the principal quality standard, and I would actually align the stuff that you're doing as a teacher that aligns with the standards you're expected. Because what you're actually showing is you're already doing the leadership jobs in the role of as teacher.

Lucas Clarke (38:05.61)
Mm

George Couros (38:30.476)
And I was like, and so it was like the analogy I try to give and this is, you know, old man advice, you know, that we learned is like, it was, was, stop it. Only I can refer to me as an old man. So the, it's the like dress to the job you want, not the job you have. And that was like, that was the connection I made when she said that. So then you're like saying like,

Lucas Clarke (38:34.999)
Mm hmm. My favorite.

George Couros (38:50.892)
How am I doing this? And I think that's really good advice is, you know, if you're a teacher and you wanted to go to like an admin position, a leadership position, find what the standards are for leadership, show how you're doing it. Cause so many teachers are actually doing that currently. So if I can show you like, Hey, I'm actually already meeting all these standards from my role. I'm a sure thing. Do you what mean?

Lucas Clarke (39:08.323)
Mm

Like it's not something you are going to work toward. something you're kind of already embodying and kind of like your daily presence. Yeah.

George Couros (39:15.052)
already doing it for my role. Yeah. we really try to work with our like with our staff to put them in those positions. And many of them have gone on to bear. I think to me it's they didn't just go on to those roles. They've gone on to be really good in those roles. Right. And you know, constantly developing, you know, people that think a little bit different, want to hire, you know, and I don't know how long, you know, you've taught and what your experiences are with administrators, but a lot of times

Lucas Clarke (39:32.034)
Yeah.

George Couros (39:45.088)
administrators that I encountered, was like, it was like three people who thought the exact same way. And people knew that was very different about myself and Archie. Like we thought very differently about things. And we would kind of, you know, go back and forth and we would challenge like people would, people would like, are you guys okay? Because they would hear us. Yeah, we're just talking. And that was just like, yeah.

Lucas Clarke (40:04.686)
I honestly feel like that's, I feel like that's super common. Cause I guess my, was kind of different for me because my first few years actually substitute teaching. It was because of the demand for teachers. I was actually subbing full time in university. So I couldn't actually work full time yet, but I loved that because you got to actually get exposed to what so many different teams are like, but I do.

George Couros (40:16.526)
Yeah.

George Couros (40:22.892)
Yes. Right.

George Couros (40:30.321)
yeah. Yeah.

Lucas Clarke (40:33.742)
generally think that it's still kind of the mentality where like the VP kind of takes over the discipline part and the job becomes so big for principals that it's kind of hard to be like, if you have a school of, I in Alberta, somewhere, even in Florida, there's some like three and 4 ,000 students. Like you can't just be the main disciplinarian all the time. Sometimes if you're at a smaller school, like even K to nine, you were probably dealing with 12, 1500 kids. So I find that some...

George Couros (40:39.458)
the discipline.

George Couros (40:59.34)
Right. Yeah. Well, I, I, I don't, I don't know if that's true though. And I think like, so here's, here's the, so a lot of my work is in the U S and so I'm in Florida and then you have, for example, Miami Dade schools, which I think is maybe top three, top three size district in the U S right. So I think it's like New York, LA, Miami, and

Lucas Clarke (41:04.451)
Mm

Lucas Clarke (41:08.046)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.

Lucas Clarke (41:19.0)
Mm

George Couros (41:27.758)
So that's a huge district, right? So then you go and like, I'm talking, I don't even know. I'm guessing like hundreds of thousands of students. Do you know what mean? So they got massive high schools, things like that, right? So then you go to like Alabama and you go there and they're like, so, hey, you know what? We have like a lot of issues cause we're like such a huge district and we're so big. I'm like, how many students? Like we have like 5 ,000 kids.

So like, so the, it's big for maybe that state. And so like, it's kind of relative and you kind of like get into this. And I think part of it too, like, there's, there's something really, I remember working with, I think it was Surrey schools in, in BC and they were either one or two for size, like population size was either, it was either, I think it was between them and Vancouver and working with them.

Lucas Clarke (41:57.4)
You

Lucas Clarke (42:15.512)
BC. Yeah.

George Couros (42:26.19)
They had this massive district, but they, was like everyone knew each other. There was like almost like a, like a, I don't want to, for lack of a better term, like almost like a family type atmosphere. It was just very collegial connected because it was really intentional in creating that. Now, you know, this is, you know, I can't really speak for them now. I haven't been there in, you know, 10, 15 years, but at that time I was shocked because I had, I had been in districts and I'll give you,

Lucas Clarke (42:38.766)
Mm -hmm.

Lucas Clarke (42:49.228)
Mm

George Couros (42:56.118)
I had been in districts that were smaller than the one I had been in with Kelly. And I don't want to name any districts, right? It was smaller. I had never met the superintendents ever. Not one day, as a teacher for multiple years in the district, okay? In a large district that I go to,

Lucas Clarke (43:01.794)
Yeah.

George Couros (43:16.748)
when I got hired there on the very first day I met the superintendent, all the superintendent team, all the people there because they made sure that they connected with all the new teachers and you had access that you'd see them. They would know my name, things like that. So even in a smaller place, they were like, well, we're like too big. Yes. It's that mentality as opposed to like going out of your way to connect with people. And when you actually make those connections, even in a large district and you have a trust built in, you know, connected,

it gets, things get done faster because you know, each other, you know, you can count on people, you have a relationship with them. So like even, you know, at the end of my time in that district, I was at central office and I hated. Like I, I hated actually being in central office, like the actual office. Cause I really like being around students. like being around kids, just a different energy, right? Like when you're around adults all day.

Lucas Clarke (44:06.05)
Thank

Lucas Clarke (44:12.397)
Yep.

George Couros (44:14.134)
And not students. It's like a different vibe, right? You know, kids, you know, like if I, if I wanted to know like, Hey, where, where do I look worse today? No adults going to tell me that kids will. What's the thing on your head? What's that thing on your forehead? that's the thing that appeared. Thanks for pointing it out. Cause I know it's pointing at you right now. Right. Like they'll tell you right away. Like it's fine. It's like, it's like horrible and funny at the same time. Cause it's like, they don't care. They're not like.

Lucas Clarke (44:16.984)
Yep.

Lucas Clarke (44:25.016)
Yeah

Lucas Clarke (44:29.311)
Yeah.

Lucas Clarke (44:33.966)
Especially in K to 9, 100%. They will point out everything.

Lucas Clarke (44:43.7)
wait, literally yesterday I was running with cross country and I just got my haircut recently. And I guess that on the bottom of my t -shirts, some of my back hair was coming up. And the students just like, why is your back so hairy? I'm like, whoa, like, why are we like, you need to chill. Like we need to chill.

George Couros (44:52.344)
There you go. There you go.

George Couros (44:58.914)
Right. It's like, it's like, they don't, don't, it's like, they don't care though, either. They're not like judging you. They're just pointing out something they see. Yeah. Yeah. So, so when I was at, when I was at central office in a very large geographical district, I would call a principal up and say, Hey, I need to do some like office stuff and it sucks. And I, like, as I mentioned before, like it's just part of some of the men jobs, right? Can I, is there a teacher there?

Lucas Clarke (45:03.319)
Yeah!

Lucas Clarke (45:06.786)
Like, why you do that? Don't worry about it. Just be cool.

George Couros (45:28.184)
that I can sit in their class for a few hours and just kind of do it in the back, kind of just be a fly on the wall. And make sure you ask, I don't want to show up and surprise someone, right? So then a teacher would have me in that was very comfortable with me in there and I would say to them, hey, listen, I know I'm from central office, I want you to understand this, I'm not here to observe you.

Lucas Clarke (45:33.559)
Mm

Lucas Clarke (45:38.584)
Yeah.

George Couros (45:54.72)
If anything, I'm trying to observe the environment we're putting you in because a lot of times we don't really understand what's going on in schools. So if I'm not here, I can't really make some of these decisions that I have to make. So I want to just kind of see if there's things that are kind of going on. So I would sit in a classroom. I remember actually distinctly one time there was a teacher pulling out an iPad card. They're pulling out this iPad card. Wi -Fi is pretty new. We're not really, you know.

Lucas Clarke (46:23.331)
Mm.

George Couros (46:23.916)
It's not that great. So she's trying to, the kids are like all having trouble like connecting to the wifi. She's like, gets up on a table and like, this has never worked, but we still do it. You get someone on a table and like starts like waving it like something like it's going to be the wifi thunderbolt. It's it, it will connect. It's like, it's like watching Cirque du Soleil. Right. I'm watching this in the back of the room as I'm like knocking off email, whatever.

Lucas Clarke (46:36.046)
You

Lucas Clarke (46:39.498)
Yes. Yes.

George Couros (46:53.066)
So I remember like calling IT department, cause that's like kind of my purview at the time. Said, Hey, we have this teacher in here who's probably gonna like break her neck. Cause the wifi is not working and we need more routers in this room because, and you need to check the entire school cause she's like doing everything to make this work and she'll use it, but other teachers will not. If it doesn't work.

Lucas Clarke (47:18.316)
And she's sacrificing herself.

George Couros (47:20.044)
Right. Other teachers like she sees the value in it and so she'll do whatever she can to make it work. But a lot of teachers that are a little bit reluctant, a little bit resistant, it doesn't work for them. Well, that's why I never use it. I'm never using that thing again. So we have to remove all those barriers. So I remember like calling right in front of her and like having the authority to get something done immediately. And she looked at me, she's like,

Lucas Clarke (47:24.216)
Mm

George Couros (47:48.148)
And I wouldn't have known that if I wasn't there. so like you, you've probably seen this too, Lucas. I reference it as the superintendent entourage, right? So like the superintendent comes in, you know, in Alberta, they're wearing like a, you know, in winter, it's like a long coat and there's the board of trustees and they're all like squatting down and they're like pretending and it's like, everyone's like standing up straight and you know, they're acting a certain way. There's a lot of anxiety going on.

Lucas Clarke (48:09.752)
yeah.

Lucas Clarke (48:18.125)
Yeah.

George Couros (48:18.382)
And then they just kind of walk. Nothing really gets done. Nothing really happens. And it's more like a presence thing. And it's like, hey, can we get some pictures with kids? And then it's like in the paper, like, you know, it's all this stuff. And it's just fake. It's just garbage, right? And then, and so everyone fakes for like 10, 15 minutes until they leave. And then you go back to doing what you're doing. So the part of it for me was I was going to be so present in classrooms, no matter the role, that

Lucas Clarke (48:21.41)
Hahaha

Lucas Clarke (48:32.494)
You

George Couros (48:45.15)
I did not want to intimidate you. I did not want you feeling like uncomfortable because when you only pop in once in a while, it's terrifying. But when you're like there all the time, know I mean? Totally, totally, right? Yeah.

Lucas Clarke (48:52.622)
Especially unannounced. I've had it where, yeah, and she's super nice, like the super nice that I had before and I won't name her, but I remember explicitly, because I can tell you explicitly what I was lecturing on, that's how you know it was terrifying. Because they walked in, I was going hyperinflation in Germany in 1932, and I was like, you know what, okay, I think she's gonna be here for 10 minutes. I was like, how can I make sure this goes really well for 10, but like that pressure is not, it shouldn't be needed.

George Couros (49:05.89)
Yeah. Yeah.

George Couros (49:18.071)
Right.

Lucas Clarke (49:21.762)
not necessarily needed, it shouldn't necessarily have existed in the first place. So I like what you're saying about making the active decision to be present.

George Couros (49:21.858)
No. Right.

George Couros (49:29.548)
Yeah, and that was like, that was, know, I, when I was a principal, assistant principal, I would every morning walk the entire school and go into every single classroom and say good morning to them, connect with them. Sometimes I would take my laptop and sit in the back, I would just kind of do it randomly. I wanted to make it so normal to you that people just kept going, doing their thing. Do you know what mean?

Lucas Clarke (49:44.206)
Mm

George Couros (49:56.184)
But when it like happens, it's like a disruption to class. It's like a little bit weird. It's like someone's playing trumpets. It's like this thing. And I just wanted it to, because of my role is to support the staff. My role is to support the kids. And so me just kind of popping in, not really knowing what's going on, getting everything secondhand. I want to kind of see this too, because you that, you know, there's time obviously for to do observations, things like that. And that was going to be very explicitly shared with them when that was happening.

Lucas Clarke (49:56.279)
Mm

George Couros (50:25.944)
but it was always about I need to put my people in the best position for them to succeed. So like I actually just did a video on this. There's a difference between removing barriers, which in my opinion is the bare minimum that's not being met in many schools, but then going to like adding value. Like actually making sure that because of what you do as an educational leader, you're making not the lives only easier, but better. Cause if you don't make them better, then why are you there? Right?

Lucas Clarke (50:31.49)
Mm

Lucas Clarke (50:52.984)
Hmm.

George Couros (50:55.842)
So I think that's too, like even in that, when I was mentioning that before, the what makes a great principle, you kind of mentioned that question. I say like, I actually, if you're a bad principal, I don't think you need, I don't think you need one, right? If you're a great principal, like how different that world can be. And you know, I talk a lot about basketball. I know you're Canadian. You see the Koi Leonard thing behind me? I was there. Just by the way. Yeah. I was actually, you know, total aside, I'm a huge basketball fan. I was in Denver.

Lucas Clarke (51:08.877)
it.

Lucas Clarke (51:16.278)
I do, yes. What?

Lucas Clarke (51:22.624)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

George Couros (51:25.88)
And I was actually going to the East coast for an event. So I had an event in Denver, had a layover in Toronto, and then had to go to East coast. I was, the layover was the day of that game seven, Philly versus Toronto Raptors. And I called Air Canada and I begged and I'm like, you know, it's going to be like a couple thousand bucks if you change the flight. I'm like, I just, can I get my layover in the morning? Can I like, can I go from wherever? Right.

Lucas Clarke (51:29.506)
Mm

Lucas Clarke (51:42.775)
Mm

George Couros (51:56.022)
And then they were like, nah, can't, you know, I'm like, that's too much. I mean, I actually like found a good ticket and I called back and just someone else picked up. I'm like, Hey, and he's like, I know you're asking. got you. I like never forgot that. It was like, if he could have went, he was going to go. So there's no way he's holding me back. So he's like nothing. So I actually ended up last second going to that game and you can actually, got such a good ticket. You can see me.

Lucas Clarke (52:09.685)
Yeah

Lucas Clarke (52:15.478)
Yeah. Wow.

George Couros (52:25.646)
If you watch that clip on ESPN, like on the highlight where Kui has the shot, I can show you the back of my head. You can actually see me in the clip. Right? It was like, you know, like everyone was, totally, you know, it's like, I cannot wait, what, in like 10, 15 years, they're gonna have the Canadian heritage moments. And it's like, and I'll be like, that's where I was. I was right there. that guy, that's me.

Lucas Clarke (52:28.557)
Mm

Lucas Clarke (52:32.238)
That's crazy. That's insane. That's literally yeah, that's like the biggest moment in Toronto sports in the past 10 years.

Lucas Clarke (52:48.759)
That's the black hair right there

George Couros (52:52.3)
Yeah, that's right. Cause you can see like, you know, you can see if you look, look for the girls, look for the girls, right? I'm like my back, I'm like, about three, four rows back of the court. And yeah, like, it was just a sick, someone just had a single ticket. They're like, I'm not going to say I'll take a tick. So I got a single ticket for like nothing, just cause they're like, you couldn't get rid of it. Yeah. They couldn't get rid of it. think they had, I think they had four seats and they sold three of them. And I got that like, so I just went by myself. It was amazing.

Lucas Clarke (52:56.022)
I'm going to go watch it after this immediately.

Lucas Clarke (53:11.98)
What? because no, yeah.

Lucas Clarke (53:19.724)
Wow.

George Couros (53:20.686)
So anyways, the reason I bring up the basketball thing is I used to ref basketball. And the analogy that I always make that if there's a similarity between like administrators in schools and referees, if you are a bad referee, everybody notices you. if you're a bad referee, you suck ref, you're gonna hear it the whole time, right?

Lucas Clarke (53:24.002)
Yeah.

Mm

Lucas Clarke (53:46.53)
Yep. I rev hockey, so I can relate.

George Couros (53:50.284)
Right, right. If you're a good referee, people don't pay attention to you, but you're like helping with the flow of the game. You know, you're, you're, not like you're not active. It's not like you're not making people better, but people don't really notice you. Right. And a lot of times the best administrators don't actually get the credit, right? They don't get the credit for the work they do because they're kind of just helping with the flow of the game, making sure everything goes smoothly. Then, know, if you're a hockey referee, you totally understand that. But if you suck,

Lucas Clarke (53:58.851)
Yeah.

George Couros (54:19.724)
Like, I just don't even have you, because you're probably making things worse, right?

Lucas Clarke (54:20.002)
Yeah.

Lucas Clarke (54:23.53)
At least in sports, they'll be upfront and letting you know that they don't like your decisions. But whereas teaching is a little bit different. Yeah, you'll fight. You'll get it a different way. But either way, the parents will tell you.

George Couros (54:29.44)
Right, right, right. Well, they'll you'll find out. You might not let's do it directly. You'll find out. You'll find out. Yeah, you'll find out. so I think. Yeah, yeah. So I think that's part of, know, that's part of the, that role is that you it's, it's really beneficial if you have it, like I've, I've been so like, I aspire to those people. That's why I wrote what makes good. So I already say, I'm not saying I was a great principle. I'm saying I benefited from having one and like even, even the, and I don't know, like, I know you kind of.

Lucas Clarke (54:50.593)
Mm

George Couros (54:59.244)
said you kind of just skimmed it over. What was really important to me was I wrote a lot of that from having a great principal, but I also wrote about some of the things that I did as a school principal, Allison Apsi, who kind of co -authored and led the charge on this. She had been a principal for much longer than I, so she shared some of her experiences, the data behind what's important. But I think the really unique thing about that book is we asked teachers,

not we asked principals, former principals, their insights on, we, we talked about these five pillars, like, Hey, how do you achieve this pillar? Give us like a practical strategy and a story with this. But we asked teachers to, to share if they, if they had a great principal and why it was really important. Because we always talk about like, Hey, we need to listen to people we serve. But then it's always like superintendents writing those books. And it's like totally from a central office perspective or whatever. So I'm like, look, if you really want to know.

if you're effective, ask the people you serve. like you, you would, would not, there's people I approached to writing that book. And I said, have you ever had a great principle? And they're like, nah, I haven't. I'm like, all right, well you're out. we don't, you know, cause I can, that book would be easy. Like, hey, don't be this person, right? So it was really important for us to show like, hey, this is.

Lucas Clarke (56:19.884)
Yes. Don't. Yeah.

George Couros (56:24.45)
this is why this person was great and what they actually had done for them from the perspective of a teacher. And actually as we were like going through it and reading it, it was to be honest with when I read it, I was like, I wish I had this book. Like just, there's just things that I never really thought of as a principal. Like one of them I remember and I apologize. I can't remember her name. I can see her face. She has a pretty big following. on

Lucas Clarke (56:48.814)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.

George Couros (56:53.388)
Tik Tok actually. And she always goes, hello. It's Abby. had to like work my way through it. Abby Ramos to newts. And she was like, hello teachers. And I approached her. I want to think she said was she had a new principal and she just kind of as an aside, like she didn't even really write the chapter. She goes in by the way, just, you know, there's like a trauma that teachers experience when they actually have a new principal. So maybe we could talk about that another time. And I was like, my God, like,

Lucas Clarke (56:57.869)
Yeah.

George Couros (57:22.274)
That is kind of true. That's a true, you know, like when you're, you're like, kind of things are going well, you kind of, and even if they're not going well, at least you know what's going on. And then all of a sudden you just get someone new and you're like, okay, what's, what's going to happen here? And like, I, like, I guess I had kind of experienced it, but she just said it. And then I was like much more aware of it than I had been before. And that was really, so like, if someone's reading that going into a school, brand new and they're like, yeah, I better like,

Lucas Clarke (57:31.401)
Yes.

Lucas Clarke (57:35.875)
Yeah.

George Couros (57:52.376)
Dude, just that little thing, like, and it was like, like that really, that was like a smack to me when I read that. And I was like, yeah.

Lucas Clarke (57:53.855)
Yes.

Lucas Clarke (57:59.19)
Well, not even acknowledging that you are a new presence that they need to get used to. Yeah.

George Couros (58:02.766)
Right, right. Right, right, right. Yeah. And it's actually funny because I saw one of the questions that you shared, and you mentioned about, you know, like 10, 15 years ago, what, like, what are the things that you would do maybe differently? And I know this is going to be weird. I probably wouldn't do anything differently in this sense. I always get to ask this question. Like what, if you were a principal today, what's the first thing you would change? Right. And it's the same answer 15 years ago.

Lucas Clarke (58:26.698)
Mm

George Couros (58:33.162)
It's nothing I would change nothing in a school. My role as a principal is to come in there and understand who am I serving? What are they good at? What do they have access to? And not to change them, but really to kind of understand the culture of what is happening in this space already. What are people good at? And I give this very practical, like it's almost like a little too practical because it's very meticulous. I say I would literally actually have this is this is what I didn't do. I was

Lucas Clarke (59:02.349)
Mm

George Couros (59:02.456)
cognizant of this, but I wish I would actually done this very methodical way. I said I would actually have a spreadsheet with every staff member's name on the spreadsheet. And then I would have a column to the right of it. And I would have, what is their strength? Like, what are they really good at? And I'd be able to identify it. And what I share with people is that not only do you need to know what their strength that what they're really good at, they need to know that you know, as well. And how important that is.

Because if you're going into a new school, and this is a mentality for many people, if you go into a new school and people think you're trying to fix them, they are going to fight you nonstop. But if you go into a new place and you can show how much you value what they're already doing and value the stuff that they're doing and you're there to kind of help grow it, they'll support you in that whole premise. And I think that to me is something that...

A lot of people go in with an agenda. They go in with like, here's my vision. Here's where we're going to go. Here's what we're going to do. It's like you, you're saying like, Hey, let's do this together. But also like, had no input on this. I had no say in this at all. And so I think that to me is really, really important. And I don't think that answer will change 15 years from now. If you're effective in that role, like you should know what people are good at and build on it too, because like, it just, doesn't serve people well. And like we always,

I wrote about this in the Interviwers Mindset and I don't know where you were in education at this time. That book came out 10 years ago. There is an article in an Ontario newspaper and it said, I can't remember the exact title, but it was something like this. It said, scores go up in Ontario while numeracy scores go down.

Lucas Clarke (01:00:42.121)
Mm

Lucas Clarke (01:00:54.5)
Thank

George Couros (01:00:55.224)
So that's like, so it's like says, Hey, we're good at literacy, bad at numeracy, right? Or math, it was like math, whatever. Okay. So then in the article, it is like, teacher suck at math, teacher, math, teacher, second math, teacher, second math. It mentions literacy zero times. So not once does it mention literacy. Okay. So, so it says in the headline, we're good at this, but it doesn't talk about it at all. So then what happens is in Ontario education,

Lucas Clarke (01:01:09.666)
Yeah.

George Couros (01:01:24.532)
All these districts, know, we suck at math. We like really suck at math. So what do they do? Every district has to have math in their like their plan, their school improvement plan, right? So then that goes from the directors of learning or director or whatever, because it's different in Alberta versus Ontario to their like superintendents, to their principals. Principals are like, we suck at math. You need to fix your math.

Lucas Clarke (01:01:38.54)
Yep.

Lucas Clarke (01:01:51.502)
Yeah.

George Couros (01:01:52.002)
you get better math. So it's like you're hearing from the media, you're hearing from your, your director, you're hearing from your superintendents, hearing from your principals. And they're like, why are teachers like so dissatisfied with the profession? cause you honestly are telling them they suck, right? So my argument in that was I'm not saying don't address the math stuff at all. Okay. The first thing we should have said, why are we so good at literacy? Like, what are we doing there? Like, what are we doing there? Why are we so good at this?

Lucas Clarke (01:02:01.912)
Weird.

Lucas Clarke (01:02:12.97)
Mm

George Couros (01:02:21.772)
Why are we excelling in this area? And is there anything that we can learn from how good we are at literacy and apply it to maybe improve some of the things that we're doing in math? And that to me is like, that's the missed opportunity there. It's like educational whack -a -mole. There's always gonna be an area you can get better at, but we always focus on that instead of like, hey, we're really good at this. This is like, we are so good at this.

Let's talk about this more. Let's focus on this. so there's actually, talk about this. geez, can, it's, I think it's Tom Rath, strengths firefighters. And basically he says, when you actually focus on, on nothing, basically nothing gets better. Like if you don't focus on strengths or weaknesses,

If you focus on weaknesses, things might get a little bit better. If you focus on strengths, they get exponentially better. So that's, that's, that's the mentality there is really kind of focusing on what are people really doing well. And what happens is that they don't just get better at the thing they're already doing well. They get better at the thing they're not doing well. Cause they feel like, you know, Hey, like I'm actually pretty good. Right. If you constantly, Hey George, you lost a bunch of weight, but you can, you know, probably do this, you know, like, why aren't you playing basketball? Like I would be like, I would be deterred.

Lucas Clarke (01:03:14.092)
Mm

George Couros (01:03:40.078)
Right? But like when you're, I'll tell you the other day, I haven't been, I've been traveling for speaking and I, know, like you not like I'm not eating as healthy then too. And stuff like that. It's not like I, you know, got all my weight back or anything like that, but I'm feeling like a little girl. So I've been really focused on it. And someone said to me, Hey, you look great. You know what? That like made me work 10 times harder.

Lucas Clarke (01:03:40.62)
Yeah.

Lucas Clarke (01:03:46.178)
Mm -hmm.

Lucas Clarke (01:03:53.059)
Yep.

Lucas Clarke (01:03:58.05)
Mm

Lucas Clarke (01:04:02.808)
You

Lucas Clarke (01:04:06.742)
Ha!

George Couros (01:04:08.236)
Right? Cause I'm like, yeah, I'm going to keep this up. Right? If you said, like, you know, I guess there's sometimes when, you know, I know you mentioned David Goggins, like, you know, a little baby and stuff like that. There's like, you know, but that typically that doesn't last very long. But you, like for me, when you compliment me on something, I'll hit it way harder.

Lucas Clarke (01:04:11.381)
Yep.

Lucas Clarke (01:04:17.602)
You

Lucas Clarke (01:04:26.83)
100%. I find why my old print principal, called them, we called those fat guy moves. He's like, whenever, whenever you like do something crazy, like we talked about stories about, like, eating 12 donuts in a sitting or whatever. But we would just happened to me, or which I've done, should say, we would talk about like, once you actually turned it around, it's like, it wasn't actually being in the negative that

George Couros (01:04:48.995)
Yeah.

Lucas Clarke (01:04:52.574)
motivated you to change. was actually once you started doing something positive and that was recognized, it actually made you work exponentially harder at that positive. It's not like, I've gained weight. Now I want to work out. It's like, no, I'm feeling better. So I'm going to go even harder. That's kind of the

George Couros (01:04:56.824)
Yep.

George Couros (01:05:04.972)
Yeah, totally. Yeah. And that's like, you know, the, you know, I know I talk a lot of sports, but I find a lot of connection between coaching and teaching and leadership. Phil Jackson is considered the most successful coach of all time. Now he had great players, right? Like he had Michael Jordan, had, know, Kobe and Shaq, like some of the best players of all time. One of the things that he did really, really well and doesn't get credit for it. Cause Michael Jordan didn't win without Phil Jackson. So Michael Jordan was still Michael Jordan, but he wasn't Michael Jordan.

Lucas Clarke (01:05:13.294)
Mm

George Couros (01:05:33.782)
until Phil Jackson showed up. One of the things that, Phil Jackson did really, really well is he made sure that everyone knew basically what they're really good at and what that strength contributed to that team. So like, if you were the 12th person on that team who is never going to see time, your role and what you were meant to be good at was to really push Michael Jordan to maybe like hammer him in practice, give him a hard time. So then you actually saw when the team does well,

Lucas Clarke (01:05:34.028)
Mm

George Couros (01:06:02.242)
That's, that's it. Do it. And like, he would do like little things. I try to like emulate some of these things. He would, he would buy like books for every player based on what he thought the player would benefit. Not like, we're all reading this book together, which is like notoriously. think that's school principals do all the time. Right? It's like, this person maybe doesn't necessarily need this book, but I know they benefit. I know they'd have interest of it. So then it shows that you actually know the person and you're trying to bring out the best in them. Not just saying like, we want everyone to do all the same thing.

And so I think that to me was some of that philosophy of like trying to bring out the best in individuals so that we together as a team, you know, like that was, that's the same thing with, you know, Archie hiring me, myself, hiring Cheryl. You're looking at like, Hey, this person brings this to the table. How do we bring out the best in them? And so that as a team, we all do better, right? It's not everyone doing the same thing. It's everyone contributing something that maybe the other person doesn't have. And I think that's the mentality. And only like, if you, if you really kind of focus,

Lucas Clarke (01:06:51.281)
Mm

George Couros (01:07:01.088)
If you're constantly telling teachers you suck at math, you suck at math, what are you gonna start do? They're gonna start hammering the kids because there's an emphasis on this. But if you start focusing on the strengths, what are the teachers more likely to do? Focus on what the kids are really good at. And that's like, it's always to me like a trickle down thing, right? I, if the way I treat my staff, the way I treat the, you know, the, people that are closest to kids, they're gonna, they're gonna eventually start teaching kids on that cause they'll feel that pressure, right? Like when I hear, teachers are teaching to the test, right? Well,

Lucas Clarke (01:07:13.474)
Yeah.

George Couros (01:07:30.306)
Cause all you show is the test course. So that's all you're gonna show. They're gonna start teaching the test. Because you're saying this is the only thing that matters. Like you're always articulating this, right? Like I've seen so many superintendents, principals like beginning of year like, hey, great to see you back. So let's talk about our data. Here's where we suck last year. We really need to pick this up, right? And I can see like, I can see the guilt. You're like, yeah, that totally happened. And so it's like, why, I wonder, I wonder why. Like, and go get them. Have a great year.

Lucas Clarke (01:07:35.022)
You

Lucas Clarke (01:07:50.296)
Well, yeah.

Lucas Clarke (01:07:59.09)
Yep. Well, and I also, it's interesting that you make that connection of, we almost think that it ends at the teacher where you're seeing them go into your, we're kind of hammering and then like you suck at numeracy, but it's almost like we've, I don't want to speak too generally, almost made the kids also believe that there's not good at it. You know what I mean? It's almost that, and I think the kids are starting to believe that.

George Couros (01:08:00.066)
Just a reminder, you kinda suck.

George Couros (01:08:23.896)
Totally.

Lucas Clarke (01:08:28.822)
And where you kind of starts with the parents in the media and then it comes down to the students actually don't believe they can learn, which I think is an underrated problem for almost every school that I've been in for sure. Cause there's, there's a, there's the kind of conceptual loss of confidence, I would say in teachers and the public institution of education anyway. But like we're still showing up to them every day. We're still doing it.

George Couros (01:08:40.61)
Yeah, of course.

Lucas Clarke (01:08:57.09)
We're still doing the thing we're trying to do it but then everyone kind of has this weird, what are we doing here mentality when realistically, a lot of the things we've always been doing are still working. If that makes sense. Yeah.

George Couros (01:09:09.664)
Totally. that's totally and I think that that to me is I've been guilty of this and I bring it up often. You say, you know, our traditional teachers. And I, you know, and like, I don't just say traditional teachers, I say it like that, traditional teachers. And I've caught myself like, is traditional teaching bad? Like, is it bad? Or is it bad teaching? Because like, that's what I'm focusing on is bad teaching.

Lucas Clarke (01:09:20.183)
Mm

Lucas Clarke (01:09:25.154)
Mm

Lucas Clarke (01:09:31.458)
Yeah. Yeah.

George Couros (01:09:37.318)
And so like one of the things I talk about all the time, for me to get my ideas to people, I often do it through story. So if you think about that, that's a way of me teaching. Storytelling is literally the oldest teaching practice in the world. So I'm actually doing one of the most traditional practices ever. My issue has never been, even though I poorly articulated in the past, has never been traditional teaching. It's bad teaching. So

Lucas Clarke (01:09:44.129)
Mm

George Couros (01:10:04.438)
if you go to the other end of it too, sometimes we do new stuff because it's new, not because it's good, right? So we get excited about something, we try something and we're like, this, we're doing this latest thing, this latest thing, but it doesn't, it doesn't mean it's good. Right? So, so that to me is one of the things that I really focus on is like, it doesn't really matter the generation, the idea came from, it matters if it works or not. And like we should, we should always ask the question, does this still work? Is this still actually making an impact?

Lucas Clarke (01:10:09.783)
Mm

Lucas Clarke (01:10:17.208)
Mm

Lucas Clarke (01:10:26.584)
Mm.

George Couros (01:10:32.264)
And if it does, and I always say this teachers, you know, you're hear a lot of innovation, stuff like this, but I'm not against tradition. What I am against is doing stuff just because we've always done it. So if you're doing something that really works for kids, then keep doing it, keep doing that thing. But you always have to kind of like ask yourself and challenge the new stuff too. If it's not, if you don't see it's working for kids, but don't challenge it because it's new challenge it whether it works or not. It's the same thing. Don't challenge them because it's old challenge whether it works or not.

So I think that to me is some of the discouraging. You look at a lot of the frustration that teachers have, and this is, you like you kind of go back, you know, at the beginning of podcast, you said like, I have a focus on leadership. And I really, really do it to me because there's a lot of issues and I know this from seeing so many different staff, but also creating some of these issues myself, right? So one of the things that we do in education is we,

are always trying to be on the cutting edge, trying to do new stuff. So it's like new initiatives, these three things. Hey, we got these three things. Well, what about the last three things? Like we, what's going on there, right? Like, are we done with those or are we like still doing that?

Lucas Clarke (01:11:36.526)
I still need the spreadsheet for that last one. No, okay.

George Couros (01:11:42.51)
Right, right. So here's the example for me. My first year of principal, I want people to really embrace technology. We see real power in this and how we collaborate, connect and stuff like this. So you go to like a big tech conference, whether it's in the US, it's in Asia or wherever. There's always these sessions that are jam packed, right? Which doesn't mean they're good. As we go to them, 100 tools in an hour.

Like, and you're gonna see this right now, a hundred cool things you can do with AI, right? So it's like, bombard. We give as many options as possible, whatever, right? So Barry Schwartz talked about actually the paradox of choice, the more choice we have, actually the more miserable we become, right? Cause it actually, we always kind of question like, are we doing the right thing? So I always saw those being really packed. So my first year as a principal, every month we have a staff day and I would do this thing. So I want my teachers to really to brace some of these ideas.

Here's 10 tools you can use in your classroom. Here's how, right? Go real quick. What'd do the next month? Hey, here's 10 new tools. Right? What'd I do the next month? Here's 10 new tools. And I'm like, geez, like how many tools are there? So, you know, 10 meetings, 100 tools later, what happens to my staff is like, sucks. Like I hate technology more than when this guy first came here, right? Yeah. You're always picking wrong.

Lucas Clarke (01:12:50.67)
You

Lucas Clarke (01:12:59.246)
It almost makes you feel like there's so well yeah there's so much I'm not using that could be better like there's so many tools out there like what am I doing wrong I'm doing everything wrong because there's so many tools yeah

George Couros (01:13:08.578)
Right, right, totally. So the second year I'm there, I said, you know what, like, hey, my approach is off. Like, this is not working. So we've actually created a team and you know, our team has decided on these three tools. Okay. And the tools, what we're going to do over the next three years, this is it. This is what we're doing. We're not going to go out of this. If you want to go out of this as an individual, you can. You, don't want to say don't.

check out other tools, any of this stuff, but as a school community, we will not provide any professional learning on this. We will not on anything outside of these three things. We are gonna know this inside out. We are gonna be so good at this stuff that it's second nature to you. Cause you don't ever like pick up a pencil because it's like drilled into you go like, do we use this again? Like how does this one work? just, it's just like, you just do it, right? And then what was beautiful about that process is you don't like,

Lucas Clarke (01:13:58.966)
Hehehehehe

Hmm.

George Couros (01:14:08.59)
Again, old guy talk. The whole mentality when Microsoft Word came out, and this really kind of shaped me, like we're only using it to 10 % of its capacity, right? Like there's so many things you can do with this. It was just true. actually like, and 10 % would be pushing it, right? There's no way you're even using 10%. But if everyone's using the exact same thing, but your 10 % is different than my 10 % and then someone else's 10%,

Lucas Clarke (01:14:15.655)
Mm

George Couros (01:14:36.93)
but we're all using the same thing, then the percentage of the community starts to go up, right? We all started using it to it. But if you're using Google, this person's using Microsoft Word, this person's using this, this person's using this, then you're not getting the capacity of anything. So we wanted the person across the hallway to know that they're using this. And this is like, why do we do the tool at all time? And I actually know the answer to this, because we want teachers to have a time.

Lucas Clarke (01:14:41.805)
Mm

Lucas Clarke (01:14:54.848)
Mm

George Couros (01:15:06.678)
Right? So what happens is we want to create a portfolio. This teacher use Google sites. This teacher use WordPress. This teacher use eduBlogs. This teacher does this. This teacher does that. So the kid is kind of doing kind of the same thing in every class, but with a different tool and they have to learn the tool and then they go to the new teacher and they got to learn the new tool because that tool is a little bit different. So I'm like, listen, we have made this decision as a school community. You're all going to use exact same thing because now when the kids doing it for three years,

you don't have to show them how to use a tool because they've been using it in every other class. It's just go deep. It's just about focusing. Right. Yeah. Right. And so like you are the most anti -technology person. You don't understand what's going on, but you know that everyone's using the same thing. So all you have to say to the kid is, put that in your portfolio. And you don't have to say like, and you go like this, do this, do this, do this. You just, you just, the kid just does it. Cause it's like, this is what we do throughout the school. So it's like kind of saying like, Hey, it's not about

Lucas Clarke (01:15:39.776)
Yeah, doesn't overwhelm the students either.

George Couros (01:16:05.42)
the autonomy of the tool, it's the autonomy of what you put into the portfolio, like what you're creating together. And that's what we wanted to create. We wanted that where it just, we weren't wasting our time trying to chase the latest thing. And my staff were so relieved. And I think part of it was at that time, I remember going to a staff and I asked this question like, kind of arrogantly, like, like kind of trying to prove a point. I'm like, listen,

Lucas Clarke (01:16:11.927)
Mm

Lucas Clarke (01:16:19.756)
Yeah.

George Couros (01:16:34.112)
If I could like let you use whatever you want, and you could do that, or I just pick three tools for you, what would you pick? They're like, just pick. Just tell us what to do. And I was like, that was like, that was not the answer I was expecting. But it made sense. You're like, it wasn't just like, just give us three tools. It was give us like three things and then show us what to do. Like, give us like meaningful things to do with this. I was like, yeah, okay, that makes sense.

Lucas Clarke (01:16:45.154)
You

Yep.

Lucas Clarke (01:17:00.301)
Yeah.

George Couros (01:17:03.618)
that actually, yeah, the whole like, let's do everything doesn't work. it's that. So that was like, you know, so that, that was from my own experience of like, God, like I'm creating a mess here. Like this is, this is not getting my people. And so we were like, one of the things I focused on is when we talk about innovation, it's not about doing the newest thing. It's about really understanding what you're doing so well. That's where you start creating something really powerful with it. So you like, I always give the analogy of a jazz musician, the top ones.

Lucas Clarke (01:17:06.635)
Yes.

George Couros (01:17:32.29)
have the ability to like create music just on the spot, improvise, do something really powerful. The reason they have that ability is because they know the basics inside out. They are so good with that instrument that that's where they can improvise. But if you like never played a trumpet and just pick it up, not just, you're gonna make, you're gonna improvise. Yeah, it's gonna suck. So that's the mentality is like, it should just be, once it becomes second nature, that's when you can go really deep, do some things that you.

Lucas Clarke (01:17:51.184)
You're gonna make something new, but.

George Couros (01:18:01.676)
really couldn't imagine before, but if you're always just learning new stuff, then we're just kind of always doing surface level things. And I think that's why teachers are really frustrated. the intersection when we talk about innovation, again, going back to the beginning of the conversation, the reason why leadership is so crucial to this is we're constantly asking teachers to be innovative, to get our kids to be innovative, but then we're always kind of doing the same leadership structures.

we're kind of doing the same thing. It's like, no, we have to rethink how we're doing stuff to put our people in the position to be successful in this, to actually really kind of go deep in their practice, really. And how do we recreate, for example, professional learning experiences? How could that look for a staff? Are we just saying, hey, our talk, 10 minute break, go pee, grab a snack, come back, let's write stuff on giant pieces of paper that no one's ever gonna read again, that kind of stuff, right? So it is really, rethink of that.

Lucas Clarke (01:18:53.828)
Hehehehe

George Couros (01:18:58.463)
I can see, like, I can tell that you're like, my God, this is like...

Lucas Clarke (01:18:58.766)
No, I literally just shared like a picture on my Instagram story the other day. And it was like when you're when you're first week back to school, you have three PD days and you're sitting next to the history teacher football coach about big sheets of paper of how to change education and someone just laying down on the driveway while it was raining. It's still still pretty common practice but no.

George Couros (01:19:19.97)
Yeah, like, more or less.

George Couros (01:19:24.514)
Yeah. it is. it's why, why is it like, that's the thing. Like even, even, there's a, there's a meme. it was like risky. So I presented that FTC last year and I started off with this and it was funny. I said, good morning, everyone. Good morning. I'm like, come on, you can do better than that. Good morning, everyone. Good morning. like.

Lucas Clarke (01:19:27.855)
I don't know.

Lucas Clarke (01:19:35.596)
Yeah.

Lucas Clarke (01:19:47.286)
Yeah.

George Couros (01:19:54.038)
So first of all, probably a bunch of you hate me right now for making you do that, right? And so, so I actually showed them. So as soon as I'm doing the second good morning, I actually go, I have like, I clicked to my next slide and the next slide is like, wow, this is happening. It said base, there's like a meme that said, soon as a speaker makes me says good morning, everyone, I immediately hate that person.

Lucas Clarke (01:19:56.494)
Yes, 100%.

Lucas Clarke (01:20:20.834)
You

George Couros (01:20:23.842)
So I actually, while they're doing it, that meme comes up and they all start laughing because they can see I'm like doing this. I'm like, so why do we do this? Like, why does it, why do you, why were you like not shocked that I did it? Cause I hated doing this. Like this was embarrassing for me. It gave me like discomfort because I hate what I would never do that. Right. So, but some of you will see, like this is embarrassing thing that they had a different keynote. And so I never saw the keynote the morning.

Lucas Clarke (01:20:28.374)
Yeah.

Lucas Clarke (01:20:37.55)
Good morning, superintendent.

George Couros (01:20:53.942)
And they totally did that exact thing. So then, so then they thought it was like actually like criticizing me. I had no clue, I had no clue that it happened. So I was like, crap, man, I shouldn't have that. But the, I said, the thing is a bunch of you will actually become speakers. You'll be in the position I am, and you'll do this exact same thing to other people, even though you hated it being done to you because we think we just need to replicate it.

Lucas Clarke (01:20:54.065)
Mm

Lucas Clarke (01:20:59.947)
Making fun of that person.

George Couros (01:21:22.294)
And I was like, no, like you don't need to do that at all. Like you don't actually need to do these things. And so this is part of like, when we talk about some of the things we're doing in education, that singular meme, someone posted it and, then you could see all the comments going, my God, I hate this. This is so stupid. I hate when people do this to me. And someone just saying it actually brought it to attention, but like we all kind of hate it. Like, and I'll give you another example. You probably icebreakers dude. I hate icebreakers. They're so

Well, they don't make me like it anymore.

Lucas Clarke (01:21:53.313)
Honestly, George, even in when you some of the questions like I'll write out for podcasts sometimes, I've started to learn that if I hate myself while I'm writing them out, I probably shouldn't ask them. So even the one about you when I asked, like, what would you do differently compared to 15 years ago? it's those. It's so I feel like everyone is growing tired of the same question.

George Couros (01:22:00.045)
Yes.

George Couros (01:22:04.747)
Correct.

George Couros (01:22:17.806)
Totally.

Lucas Clarke (01:22:18.274)
And that's why I like your emphasis on innovation because I find in education there is very

Like little disagreement over what we should be doing. Yet we all still do the same things and everyone hates it. So why does that persist?

George Couros (01:22:36.994)
Yeah, I think, and I think honestly, that's kind of part of my role is to kind of come in and go like, Hey, why do you do this? Like I actually, I, I, I will say, so when I, when I go into a district, you know, it's not, it's, it's rarely the teachers cause they don't have the budget to bring me in. Like it's not their decision. It's like a superintendent or, know, sometimes it's teacher union, whatever. Right. And I say to them, so just so you know,

Lucas Clarke (01:22:43.822)
You

Lucas Clarke (01:22:50.702)
Mm

Lucas Clarke (01:22:55.32)
Mm -hmm. Yeah. Yeah.

George Couros (01:23:06.606)
I'm gonna kind of go at you too. You're like, and part of the reason I do this is because I want everyone in this, first of all, I don't want anyone to think I'm a mouthpiece for you. I'm not a mouthpiece for you. I am actually here to advocate for kids having the best opportunities for learning and supporting the people that are closest to kids. So that's my role. So I'm gonna challenge you a little bit, because I'm also gonna challenge teachers a little bit. And so if they only see me challenging them, they're gonna be like,

Lucas Clarke (01:23:18.456)
Yeah.

George Couros (01:23:35.554)
this guy's just doing what the admin has told him to. So like, I'm not saying like you're all up for challenge here and really kind of, you know, creating some of that discomfort, some of that too, but then questioning things. And one of the things I keep hearing over and over again is like, thank you for saying what needed to be said. that, that, I, there's here, I'm gonna go super hardcore Canadian on you. Okay? You're gonna love this. I don't know if you know this, okay?

Lucas Clarke (01:23:37.856)
Yeah.

Lucas Clarke (01:23:59.918)
Please.

George Couros (01:24:05.432)
So you kind of asked, I saw like one of your questions. He's like, you know, kind of like what's your role. And I try to explain this to people, but only Canadians will understand this. Okay. Do you remember the moot, the TV show, the lowest hobo. Do you know the littlest hobo? my God. If you don't know that, my God. got to look it up. It's such a Canadian show. Okay. So it is like, it's a, I can't, I think it was CTV. You know, like how there's

Lucas Clarke (01:24:19.138)
Which one?

I don't know it. I'm devastated. Not a true Canadian clearly.

Lucas Clarke (01:24:32.28)
Mm

George Couros (01:24:33.752)
Like if you watch all the shows on CTV, yeah, like you, you can tell which one's like, you know, doesn't have to say, like this one was like, this one was like made in, you know, this one was made in Moose, y 'all. can tell. So, man, I can't believe you don't know Liz Hobo. I'm like a little, I'm a little heartbroken now. Okay. So Liz Hobo is, is it's a German shepherd.

Lucas Clarke (01:24:35.02)
Like CBC programming, yeah, like Canadian content.

Lucas Clarke (01:24:44.354)
This is publicly funded.

Lucas Clarke (01:24:55.289)
I'm a little heartbroken dude.

George Couros (01:25:03.47)
Man, many people that heard this, they're thinking less of you right now, because there's like a song with it. There's a voice keeps on calling me. Like the theme song is amazing. Like go look it up after this. So the German shepherd is like the stray dog, right? And he like goes into these towns and like, they're like, there's Billy. Like they always give a dog a different name.

Lucas Clarke (01:25:04.75)
You

Lucas Clarke (01:25:16.854)
Mm -hmm. I will.

Lucas Clarke (01:25:30.392)
Yeah.

George Couros (01:25:31.916)
Right? Cause it's a stray dog. Nobody knows like the dog's name. So then, you know, all of a sudden, you know, there's a fire in someone's house and then the German shepherd goes in and saves everybody and like pulls them out. And, and they're like, that dog. And then at the end of every episode, little hobo is like walking, like, where's Billy going? They're like, he's off to help like another school. It's like your, my dog is like, gotta come in, you know, kind of like go like,

Lucas Clarke (01:25:41.378)
You

Lucas Clarke (01:25:56.581)
You

Lucas Clarke (01:26:00.5)
Put out fires and then go to

George Couros (01:26:01.688)
Right. then just kind of like go off to the next school. Like, cause you're, you know, but the town is hopefully the town is better because of that. They're like, you know what? I actually don't hate, hate you. You know, like you're not the worst person. And so, you know, that, that totally fell short because you're not that bad. I can't believe that's like that. Lilith's hobo is like classic CTV. And you know what? If you.

Lucas Clarke (01:26:11.0)
You

Lucas Clarke (01:26:16.81)
No, I'm sorry. I know.

Lucas Clarke (01:26:25.868)
I'll find it on the CBC programming after this.

George Couros (01:26:28.908)
Like this, and it's funny because you can tell like what's a CTV show and a CBC show. Like it's a CTV show. It's a hundred percent a CTV. Like they use different cameras or something. They're like, here's the CBC cameras. Here's the CTV cameras. Do like, know Degrassi or? I don't know. I don't know. Cause there's, don't know what generation are you on? Degrassi the future now? Like.

Lucas Clarke (01:26:36.218)
You

Lucas Clarke (01:26:45.484)
Yes, yeah, yeah, I know. I do know the graph.

Lucas Clarke (01:26:55.699)
Yeah, I don't want to tell you how old I am because it'll I'm a

George Couros (01:26:59.086)
Did you, yeah, the next generation, the directly your Degrassi next generation kit. There you go. Yeah. Well, actually one of my favorite moments of all time was, isn't that the kid from Degrassi? This Drake guy? was like, you know, if you actually, if you, if you go listen, cause there was a, the old Degrassi, they like had a band and they sucked so hard. It was so bad.

Lucas Clarke (01:27:03.98)
I think so, yeah.

Lucas Clarke (01:27:13.47)
Dre.

I did live through that, so.

Lucas Clarke (01:27:25.326)
Mm

George Couros (01:27:27.478)
And then, just by default when Drake's rapping, cause you know, it's like more modern. So now of course, you know, one of the kids is a rapper. You're like, man, this sucks. And it's like, is your like, just in the mentality that any song from Degrassi? Go actually watch, go watch Drake actually rap in old Degrassi. it's like, actually it's pretty good. This is pretty good. I can see why he became Drake. Yeah. It's kind of funny. Jimmy Brooks, Jimmy Brooks.

Lucas Clarke (01:27:30.595)
Mm -hmm.

Lucas Clarke (01:27:34.84)
Mm -hmm.

Lucas Clarke (01:27:40.418)
like this is a CTV kid who's just trying to like,

Lucas Clarke (01:27:48.95)
Yeah. Yeah.

Lucas Clarke (01:27:55.68)
Yeah. And so but now that you're like in the consulting game I guess like what is your like me like what made you want to be a consultant like how's that opportunity even like how do you go from principal and in Alberta with like it's Ed tech and then you're now I'm living in Florida running all the time sometimes and then consulting and going town to town.

George Couros (01:28:08.3)
Yeah.

George Couros (01:28:14.126)
Yeah, you know, so I used to like go to conferences, see speakers, I'm like, that's pretty cool. But I don't know what it was. I never, I never actually connected that was a job. Like I never connected that somebody did that. I like I didn't understand. Like I didn't know that I didn't know that. Right. So I remember when I was in school, I really tried to try to understand like, how do we use some of these technology tools?

Lucas Clarke (01:28:33.304)
Yeah.

George Couros (01:28:41.462)
I weirdly enough, I was actually super against technology because I saw a lot of kids being dumped into computer labs. The computer would basically do the thing like the, the, the whatever the teacher would be marking. I'm like, these kids are like, there's, they're not doing anything. They're just, and it's like a prep period. There's nothing really powerful here. So don't know if this is a good thing, right? So then, you know, my brother, Alec gross, I don't know if you're familiar. He's in, he's actually, he got me early into this stuff.

And I started like, okay, I'm going to kind of start playing with this stuff. I'm going to kind of see, you know, is there any benefit to this? So I actually started using Twitter long time ago and I was actually sharing stuff that was going on in our school. And it was basically just to kind of show like, Hey, here's some stuff like it's mostly show our community, things like this. Then all of a sudden it was like a very different time on social media. Like people were nice to each other. Very different than now. but it was like,

Lucas Clarke (01:29:35.159)
You

George Couros (01:29:39.458)
people were seeing stuff that we were doing all over the world. And then all of a sudden it was like, Hey, can you come speak at our school? I'm like, what are you talking about? Like, yeah, you should come speak. I'm like, yeah, I guess I could. And they're like, what's your fee? I'm like, you're going to pay me to do this. So like, I actually didn't even know it was a job. And then, and then all of sudden people started doing this. And then I, you know, I started, you know, and I'm very comfortable speaking, you know, obviously like, I don't know how long this podcast probably like

Lucas Clarke (01:29:47.594)
Hahaha!

Lucas Clarke (01:29:57.208)
You

George Couros (01:30:08.174)
45 minutes over all your time. So yeah, so, so just kind of progressed into and I was very blessed to the school that scrubs in. They're very visionary in the sense that he like, he's getting this opportunity to do this. And you know, but he's probably not gonna do it full time. So like, let's, let's support him. And he can also work here. And I remember, like the vision for school this time was like,

Lucas Clarke (01:30:08.536)
That's fine. I don't have a time. worry about it.

George Couros (01:30:36.238)
You know, we want to help learners, not students, learners. And I really emphasize this because learners is anyone willing to grow. That includes adults. That includes teachers. That includes custodial staff. Like any of support staff. mean that too, right? So like, how do we help learners achieve their dreams? And I remember like kind of get some pushback, like, I don't know if she's speaking. I'm like, well, let's look at the vision. Let's look at the vision here. Doesn't it say learners? Am I a learner? They're like, yeah, I'm like, this is one of my dreams. Like, so how are you supporting me in this process? Like, all right, that's fair. I remember that. So then it was like, I was.

Still working at school district and I went 0 .9, 0 .8, 0 .5, 0 .2, and then took a sabbatical, wrote in a various mindset. Was going to spend the year doing it. Took me about a month and it was out like four months later. Cause it was like, it was interesting because I actually had such an easy time writing it. Cause I just pulled stuff that I'd been writing about on my portfolio that I only learned to create because I wanted to teach students how to do it. So I said, I can't teach kids this if I don't understand it from the viewpoint of a learner.

Lucas Clarke (01:31:33.741)
Yep.

George Couros (01:31:35.958)
So then I just, yeah, then I just after Interpreter's Mindset came out, then that was kind of it. I never went back to school district. And yeah, so I just kind of fell into it. I don't know, you know, like we moved to, most of my work is in the US now. And I joke, but it's a little bit true. There's something about accents, right? Like I have a Canadian accent. you know, like, right.

Lucas Clarke (01:32:01.57)
You have this Greek Canadian accent.

George Couros (01:32:03.822)
Right, so they you know, you go, this is one of the most frustrating things for school districts everywhere. I can go in there say something that's been said by the superintendent 100 times like that Canadian guy. Like I've been saying this for like, whatever. So you just got it. Sometimes you just got to hear from someone else who maybe frames a different way. You know, it sounds a little bit different than the person because then it's not like, you know, and I had the same thing I would like, we had people come into our district, saying stuff very similar to me.

at the time, they're like, that's a great idea. Like, I know. I've been telling you that forever. Right? So that that's kind of how that, you know, that kind of started. And yeah, I just, in like, I saw one of your questions, and I thought it was interesting. It's like, how do you kind of, I was like something about like relevance to teachers, I actually, and this is very important to me. I don't ever tell anyone how to teach.

Lucas Clarke (01:32:35.384)
You

George Couros (01:32:58.722)
That is not my role. I don't say like, should do this in your classroom, anything like this. Because I, first of all, I don't care. I don't care how long you've taught. I don't care if you're teaching right now. I don't care if you've taught a hundred years ago. I don't like being told what to do. Do not tell me what to do. So I, so if I don't like being told what to do, I'm not going to go and tell anyone else to do. So my viewpoint that I share is just from a learner. I'm like, here's stuff I learned.

Here's stuff I've done in my classroom, but at the end of the day, I want you to understand this. You're the expert, and I think this is a really important aspect. I'm just a person sharing ideas with you, but I don't know your community. I don't know some of the stuff you're dealing with. I can give you some ideas. You create the solutions. So that is a really important aspect for me, and I honestly think sometimes just outright saying that, people are like, okay, okay, I'll listen to this guy, because like,

Lucas Clarke (01:33:54.401)
Mm

George Couros (01:33:54.944)
immediately setting the standard is like, don't want to tell you what to do. I don't want to tell you what to do. And in fact, think about this is how do we deem this as a successful day often? And this is that challenge thing. Do we got a bunch of stuff we can do Monday with our class? is that, that's how we'll deem if it's successful. So I make this point. So you want me to tell you exactly what to do on Monday.

Lucas Clarke (01:34:17.207)
Hmm.

George Couros (01:34:24.566)
and that's how you deem successful. Do you know any other group of people in the world who hate being told what to do? It's like, me exactly what to do, but also don't you dare tell me what to do. Like it's literally the same group of people, right? So my hope is that you just kind of get some ideas and you create your way forward. You actually figure out like, hey, I'm gonna, I kind of like what he did there. I don't necessarily totally agree with this approach or this. So I'm gonna tweak this, I'm gonna change this, I'm gonna alter this.

Lucas Clarke (01:34:30.632)
Hehehehe

Lucas Clarke (01:34:34.902)
Yeah. Yeah.

George Couros (01:34:52.588)
but really kind of seeing it from the viewpoint of a learner. So my whole emphasis that ultimately the people that I'm talking to, how do you get to see yourself as a solution that you don't need me? And I know it's a weird way of thinking, but people saying that outright, cause it's, it is like, I don't understand the community. I don't understand what's going on here. I don't understand that. And for me to pretend that, but even, even having the conversation sometimes

Lucas Clarke (01:35:03.714)
Mm -hmm

Yep.

George Couros (01:35:19.148)
You know, you asked like, well, like, what would you do a school district? I have no clue. I have no clue because it's the same thing. I don't know what they need. like, I like, I'll get people, you know, people like, Hey, we'd love for you to come speak. You know, like send us.

Lucas Clarke (01:35:37.086)
And I guess that's kind of what I'm wondering so I'm just thinking okay say hypothetically Someone says Lucas we'd like to you to come speak to our district I'm like, what would I say to these people like I would have I wouldn't have the first clue

George Couros (01:35:47.259)
Okay. So the thing is, that's, that's why I like, don't say here's what I talk about. I like get on the phone, like, what do you need? Like, so like, why are you reaching out to me? Why? Like, why are you reaching out to me? What have you seen of mine? What is beneficial? What do need in your district? And so part of it too, is like kind of understanding who they are and what they need. And sometimes, and I know that sounds really weird.

Lucas Clarke (01:35:53.229)
Mm.

Yeah.

Lucas Clarke (01:36:13.069)
Mm

George Couros (01:36:13.484)
Sometimes they'll say we need A, B and C. like, I actually, that's not me. I'm not that person at all. So, but do you know who would be really good at that? This person. And so that, I know this sounds weird. That gives me a credibility with that district that when they do need the thing that I, that I do provide and the things I talk about, they're like, well, he's going to tell us the truth. Like he's going to be honest with us. He's not going to, cause I w I would never want to go in, to a school district.

Lucas Clarke (01:36:18.412)
Yeah.

Lucas Clarke (01:36:28.401)
Mm

Yeah.

George Couros (01:36:43.656)
and you know, pretend I'm safe and I, I, I'm very, I, I can tell this I've been doing this long enough. I hate what I call trend chasers that you know, do you know what AI developed quicker than anything? AI consultants. There's so many people that are like AI consultants that I'm like, I've never heard you talk about this ever before, like Chad GPT. So like,

Lucas Clarke (01:36:55.437)
Mm -hmm.

Lucas Clarke (01:37:10.645)
Mm

George Couros (01:37:11.234)
Now you're an expert in AI, where did this come from? So do I ever talk about AI? I talk about learning AI, I talk about some of my approaches, but I don't ever say like, you should use this, you should use this, you should use this, this would be perfect in your classroom. It's like, hey, here's some of the things that I've seen, here's some of the things that are progressing, how would you use this? Here's some of the things, like for example, I just did a book review on hidden potential by Adam

Lucas Clarke (01:37:24.675)
Mm.

Lucas Clarke (01:37:36.302)
Okay.

George Couros (01:37:36.94)
So I did a book review on it. I talked about my insights of things, but then I actually say like, hey, so I did this in my podcast. I actually asked ChatGPT for a five tweet summary of the book. So I'm gonna read that to you. So here's why do I do that? Cause I'm referencing ChatGPT. So I'm saying like, this is not mine. This is, actually use artificial intelligence. So I'm doing this too. And then I actually talk about,

Then I talk about, this quote resonated with me. Here's why. Here's like a story from my experience on why it resonated. Here's actually a connection to innovator's mindset that actually really connected to this. So part of it again, from the viewpoint of a learner. So I'm not telling like an English teacher, you need to use ChadGBT. What I'm trying to say is like, hey, like if you're writing an essay and you actually, instead of saying, don't use ChadGBT, you say, hey, I watched George use it this way. He actually explicitly shares that he used it.

So now there's no like, don't use it, but they're gonna kind of sneakily use it. Cause like when you say don't use something, I kind of want to use it more. You're saying here's how to progress this, right? So that's where I'm like, that's what I'm always trying to figure out this stuff. the interesting thing is the pathway that I fell upon to was not intentional at all. People knew my work only because I started a portfolio.

Lucas Clarke (01:38:43.655)
Yeah.

George Couros (01:39:03.426)
because I was saying, how do we do this with kids? I have no clue how this works. I can't teach kids this. I can't teach my staff this if I don't actually go first. So I started my own portfolio. like, this is actually kind of awesome. Like this is really pushing my learning. And then all of a people are like commenting from like all over. Like I actually got a request to speak in Kazakhstan yesterday. Like I'm going to Thailand at the end of the month.

and that people just reading this and I'm like, this is opening up doors. I didn't even know existed. So what I fell upon accidentally, I'm trying to intentionally teach students and staff how to do this themselves. And so I think, you know, you can kind of tell like, is someone doing this to try to get gigs or are they actually passionate about learning? Cause there's like, you know, there's like branding and they have a team and they have this. I just share learning that I do it and people are like, like, we'd love for you to talk about this. I'm like, all right. That's interesting too.

Lucas Clarke (01:39:58.41)
And I find that can be especially in education. Cause I've had the same thought process of like, like why, why did I start a podcast? Is it, it's to try to find the holes and the things I didn't learn before. And I feel like that needs to be something that you go into, I, again, there's always this balance of what are the trends, but you don't want to be the trendy person. Like you want to actually try to cultivate something original, but you're not just.

George Couros (01:40:06.904)
Alright.

George Couros (01:40:21.027)
No.

Lucas Clarke (01:40:24.888)
kind of repeating the same things for the sake of an algorithm picking you up. Yeah.

George Couros (01:40:28.716)
Right, right. that is a thing for me is that I believe that the way I talk about innovation is about doing new and better things that actually will never be irrelevant. Like you're always going to try to progress, grow, but it really is about being a learner. like, I don't know what it is. I'm not a, I like to say I'm not a resolution guy, but seemingly every January I try on some new thing and I don't know why it just, it's just like a reset. Maybe it's cause of like how my workflow goes, but like this year,

Lucas Clarke (01:40:55.735)
Mm

George Couros (01:40:58.094)
I bought my oldest daughter a piano for Christmas and I bought it because she had an interest in it, but also like I'm 49 years old. I started learning with her how to play piano at 49 years old. And I, I pick up stuff really quick because I'm like constantly trying to get better at learning. And what's interesting is I played piano for a couple of months when I was a kid and it was like Mary had a little lamb and I was like, this sucks. Like I hate this. Cause I was seven years old.

Lucas Clarke (01:41:16.454)
Mm

Lucas Clarke (01:41:23.406)
I also hated piano.

George Couros (01:41:27.96)
I was seven years old and I was like listening to Depeche Mode and the police and cause I had two older brothers who listen to that stuff all the time. Right? So I'm like, I don't, this like kid music is stupid at seven year olds. Okay. So, so now I like anything I want to learn. I go onto YouTube and I look up like the song name piano easy. I didn't always look up the easy version and I'm trying to figure it out. And it's, don't know if you ever played

Lucas Clarke (01:41:38.764)
Hehehehe

Lucas Clarke (01:41:52.578)
Yep.

George Couros (01:41:55.798)
Guitar Hero or Rock Band. You know how they have the, it's like you press whatever. So that's how the tutorials are for piano. So I have all the keys laid out. So says which key it is. I have an iPad, I put it up and it just shows me. And I have some rhythm I guess. So I can, my idol is Ryan Gosling. I love Ryan Gosling. I love Ryan Gosling so much. He is just awesome.

Lucas Clarke (01:41:57.806)
Of course. Yep.

Lucas Clarke (01:42:12.995)
Yeah.

Lucas Clarke (01:42:18.7)
You

Lucas Clarke (01:42:24.189)
That's so random.

George Couros (01:42:25.038)
I just love him. He's just so talented. He is so good. right. Remember the times. That's like, so not a Ryan Gosling movie, what it is, right? But he, he like, you know, I learned Lala Land is one of my favorite movies. It's one of my daughter's favorite movies. So like, actually, I learned I am Ken. I told him, listen, I'm all over that. So like, I learned all those songs. So I actually can play like, I think 90 % of the

Lucas Clarke (01:42:29.494)
Remember the Titans though, I get it. I get it. Yeah.

Yes.

Lucas Clarke (01:42:42.71)
Mm hmm. I you were going to say the I am Ken song, but...

George Couros (01:42:55.134)
Lullaland soundtrack now, cause you know, I could play the Billie Eilish song from Barbie. And what I try to do is I try to be a little bit ahead of my daughter. So I could say like, and I'm like, Hey, I know you like this song. Here's how to play it. And she, and now she's like killing me. you know, cause she takes lessons and that other stuff, but she's like, has an interest in it. And it's like kind of it. So talk about learning, right? So why didn't I stick with piano when I was a kid? Cause like,

Lucas Clarke (01:43:06.936)
Mm

Lucas Clarke (01:43:10.509)
Mm

Yep.

George Couros (01:43:21.418)
I can't see the future. I'm not seeing playing Depeche Mode. I'm seeing my whole life as Mary had a little lamb. But now my daughter's way more interested in it because she's playing Lullaby Land song. She's playing this too, but she's also learning the theory and she's also learning the Mary had a little lamb. So I know I can appeal to her if I can get that. then, you know, it's kind of like, Hey, if you have a kid who's eight years old, like little George eight years old, who's obsessed with basketball, you know, that kid will read a higher level if you get him a basketball book.

Lucas Clarke (01:43:25.153)
Mm

Yeah.

George Couros (01:43:50.734)
because he'll want to read that book. So now he like sees the purpose and passion in it. So it's kind of like little things like that. that's, that's why I don't really focus on the teaching aspect. I'm really trying to understand this stuff as a learner. Like even, you know, you know, it's funny. One of the very first things you asked me is about running. I get probably half, if not more of my questions about my health journey now, like not education wise, cause a lot of people struggle with it they're like, Hey, like how did you do this? Like I had yesterday,

Lucas Clarke (01:43:52.578)
Mm

Lucas Clarke (01:44:03.448)
Yeah.

Lucas Clarke (01:44:08.184)
Yeah.

Lucas Clarke (01:44:15.683)
Mm

George Couros (01:44:20.652)
someone said to me like, Hey, I saw you were on this. Cause I would actually use like V shred and this thing. And some of those things helped me. And they said, Hey, would you sign up for this? I said, no, no, no, don't sign up for it. Here's what you do. Do these things, do it for a month. If you stick with it for a month and it doesn't work, I will give you your money back. And it's like, it was a joke because they paid nothing for it. Right. It's like kind of saying like, if it doesn't work, it's you. It's like, if you do these things, I know.

Lucas Clarke (01:44:47.114)
Yes. Yeah.

George Couros (01:44:49.784)
Cause like, I don't sign up, don't, it's not going to like, if you sign up for this fitness program, but you're not going to do it, it's not going to do anything for you. You have to be ready. If you're ready. it's like, yeah, so I'm like, yeah. So here, here you go. This is what you do. You do these three things for a month. And if you don't see a result, like it's cause you're not ready. If you do these things, it's like, it's weird thing. It's the simplest thing to do. Like, sorry. It's the simplest thing to do if you're disciplined.

Lucas Clarke (01:44:57.784)
No, because you're going to make it a task also. It's going to be a thing on your schedule that you're going to hate.

George Couros (01:45:19.788)
Like you all know, like calories in calories out is how you want to lose weight. That's how it is. It's a very simple formula, but it's not as easy. It's simple, but not easy.

Lucas Clarke (01:45:20.205)
Yes.

Mm

Yep. Yep.

I know my favorite story. I some said their professor would eat. He ate only Twinkies for a month, but he still lost weight because he was just still under his calorie threshold and just actually trying to illustrate that. mean, yeah, cheese sandwiches and homemade bread, man, every day. So I won't keep you too much longer here, but for I guess like what's kind of things like looking like forward for you.

George Couros (01:45:36.002)
Right. He's a sandwich man. He's a sandwich.

George Couros (01:45:46.306)
But the same nutritional values to make this.

Lucas Clarke (01:45:58.936)
Like any books, anything that you're kind of like, what are you still seeing in education that needs some work?

George Couros (01:46:05.62)
you know, I, just, I don't know if there's anything. Yeah. You know, like obviously I'm just, like I said, I really want to, my focus is always about innovation, really thinking about teaching and learning, but I always just think about how am I progressing? What, what stuff am I learning about? I I'm like, I'm like one of the most old school people I feel on the internet. Cause I'm like the only one who like still consistently blogs, like actually writes his own blog.

Lucas Clarke (01:46:08.3)
or leadership.

George Couros (01:46:35.54)
And I, I've really focused on doing that over the years. And it's not because I'm like, Ooh, what's hot right now? What's the SEO gonna like gravitate towards? I'm like, what am I interested in? So you'll see like, blog about health stuff. I'll blog about innovation. I try to blog about books that I'm reading. One of the weirdest things since I moved to Florida, I've read more like paper books than I've ever read in my life combined. And

really trying to just.

Lucas Clarke (01:47:04.896)
Usually the opposite when you move to Florida, but.

George Couros (01:47:07.946)
Yeah, so I actually really try I don't know I could I just try to because I'm it's I'm trying to kind of get off of stuff. I'm sure have you here's one like I've been pushing back on this book a little bit and I find it fascinating. Do know the book? ancient generation? Have you heard about this Jonathan height?

Lucas Clarke (01:47:26.504)
I've heard, okay, yeah, because I read actually the Coddling of the American Mind. I did read that one, but I have not read The Anxious Generation, but it seemed almost again.

George Couros (01:47:29.976)
Yeah, yeah. Right.

Lucas Clarke (01:47:38.456)
pointing out the obvious without really like providing a tool for change unless, yeah. I didn't read that book though.

George Couros (01:47:41.326)
Yeah, well, well, no, there's tools. There's tools for change. And there's a lot of things are changing there. And here's like one of the challenges I have. So this book is leading and and like, I want to be very clear on this because this is like this is where you could get hate on this for me. So his thing is like kitchen have access to phones. Kitchen be using social media. think I think he says to either 16 or 18. School should ban this stuff.

Lucas Clarke (01:48:07.746)
Mm -hmm. Yep.

George Couros (01:48:10.39)
Understood. So like, but he and so he talks about like some of the issues, which I actually totally agree with some of the issues. Now, am I like a big advocate for phones and classrooms? No, not at all. Like that's not a big thing for me. My focus is like, how are you actually helping kids, you know, be prepared not only for their future, but for right now, like, you know, if we're not using stuff right now. And what's really fascinating to me, this book is all over the place.

Lucas Clarke (01:48:15.373)
Yep.

George Couros (01:48:39.69)
It is everywhere. School districts are buying it. They're just like, we're going to just agree with this and we're just going to do what this guy says. like, you know, it's kind of interesting because it's just been universally accepted, right? How do people know? How do people know about the book?

Lucas Clarke (01:48:55.98)
Yeah, it is kind of those buzz like words a little bit, right?

Lucas Clarke (01:49:03.338)
I social media, I guess, being on.

George Couros (01:49:04.798)
So so I'm going to benefit. I want to benefit from the thing that you should not teach kids how to benefit from. That's where I'm struggling with this is like, so you're getting this message out. You're starting this massive movement against you. And I remember actually one of the comments was a parent's like, Yeah, this this is so important. should be using this. I have posted this to like the eight parent Facebook groups I've been on. Like, my god, like,

Lucas Clarke (01:49:07.683)
Mm

Lucas Clarke (01:49:20.237)
Hmm.

George Couros (01:49:34.862)
So you're, so kids shouldn't use this, but also I can't stop posting about it everywhere. So like my whole, my whole argument of what this is as a, let's, let's start with, kids shouldn't use social media. should not be using social media at all. But how am going to get that message out? By posting it everywhere on social media. So it's kind of like the equivalent to me, like, Hey, you know what? shouldn't be driving until they're 18, but when they're 18, just throw them in key and see what happens. Like that's a little bit of.

Lucas Clarke (01:49:44.098)
What do mean by kids shouldn't use this? Like shouldn't use what? Okay, yeah. Yeah.

Lucas Clarke (01:50:02.83)
Yeah, there's no there's no apprenticeship

George Couros (01:50:03.938)
That's a little bit of what's happening. Right. So my, my whole thing right now is really kind of challenging some of this and not to be like, like, again, I agree with a lot of stuff that it's talked about some of the mental health stuff that's happening in schools, things like that. And again, I'm not like, no kids should have phones in schools. It's so imperative. Yeah. And so like they're, banning us too, but it's, like a little bit of an, I know it sounds weird. Like even, I think he says this too. He says something about like, you know, this is like heroin, like this stuff.

Lucas Clarke (01:50:22.136)
but it's almost reactionary in a sense.

George Couros (01:50:34.21)
But like if you're an adult, whatever, yeah, adults just start injecting heroin. Right? So I'm like, I don't know if that's so first of all, do we as adults know how to utilize this and think about some of the stuff. Like I encourage people like if you think we're really good at this and we're really good at this, here's a little, here's a little try this. Go onto social media and just write on Facebook, Twitter, Hey.

Lucas Clarke (01:50:37.814)
Yeah, just take care of it.

George Couros (01:51:01.198)
What do you think about the 2024 presidential election coming up? how good people are to each other. Just see how they interact. And then you'll see, like, are we as adults modeling what we expect from kids? Yeah, If you want to lose your job. like that, that thing too is like, I don't know if as the adults, we're really getting this down. So I don't know if we're the best people to guide our kids, but

Lucas Clarke (01:51:03.864)
You

George Couros (01:51:29.71)
That's so I guess there is a very personal struggle for this. And it's not because why I've advocated for kids using this. That's not my personal struggle. It's I've benefited from this. So I can't it's hard for me to say to someone like do I do I see negatives? Absolutely. And I'll give you a really easy example. I'm in way better shape than I was five years ago. One of the things I used to do five years ago, first thing morning, I'm to work out right. I'm just going to check my Twitter for like 10 minutes. I'm just gonna check it. And then an hour later, you're like in a Twitter

vortex, you can't get out of it, skip it. So what do I do now? My phone is a music playing machine until I'm done my workout. I don't check my email, but there's a credibility that I have with students because they're like, this guy's like a lot of followers on Instagram, a lot of people follow. So they're hey, this guy uses it, but he's also saying, here's when I don't use it, here's when I put it away, but I also, here's how I benefit from it, right?

Lucas Clarke (01:52:00.216)
You

Lucas Clarke (01:52:26.04)
Yeah.

George Couros (01:52:26.766)
So like going back to an earlier part of the conversation, who do teachers tend to listen to? Other teachers, right? Because there's credibility. So when I talk to teachers, like, hey, I've taught these grades, I've been vice principal, principal, I work central office, all of a sudden. But if I walked in and said, you know what, I've actually never taught, but I worked at Apple, they would be like, who's this guy? Like immediately as soon as, right? So then you have adults saying, you know what kids, you shouldn't be using this stuff.

What are the kids doing? They're like, well, you don't use it. So I'm not listening to you. It's the same. It's the same credibility issue. So, so part of it too is I'm not again, and I like, I'm so cautious about this because this, I know this is going to be posted. And so I was like, Ooh, this guy's all for phones. And I actually, it's funny. CBC contacted me and they're like, Hey, we want you to talk about cell phones in the classroom. And I already, like, I'm not dumb. They're going to, I'm going to be the pro. I'm going to be the pro phone guy. So then it's like,

Lucas Clarke (01:53:19.874)
Hahaha!

Yep.

George Couros (01:53:25.186)
Here's the pro phone guy. No, I'm the actual the nuanced guy. I'm the guy like, hey, let's just think a little bit about like, is this now like, don't kitchen never be using technology. Then what? Then what?

Lucas Clarke (01:53:37.836)
I guess how would you because that also are in New Brunswick where I am now and in Alberta where I just left they just banned cell phones completely in school both places

George Couros (01:53:44.94)
Ancient Generation, Ancient Generation, look it up. It's gonna be connected to that book, I promise you. Yeah.

Lucas Clarke (01:53:49.932)
Yeah. And, but I guess my question is like, how would you teach like, I guess, how are you teaching your own kids how to like use social media? Because you seem to be using it effectively. Because again, you and I never would have connected if it wasn't for social media. I reached out to you.

George Couros (01:54:02.522)
100 % and that I think that's part of it too is that so let's just let's just take a really simple example, right? I had a conversation with a communications person just the other day and they talked about like I asked them if they Google candidates and they're like no and I think they said that because I think they're worried they're gonna get in trouble because there's no way they don't okay whatever and you know they're gonna get in trouble so I can say it because I don't have an HR team like I have the HR team at my district.

Lucas Clarke (01:54:09.101)
Mm

Lucas Clarke (01:54:21.004)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.

Lucas Clarke (01:54:26.85)
Yeah. Yep.

George Couros (01:54:31.374)
So let's say you have, so I used to talk about this when I was a principal, I used to look at three spaces for you, you specifically, if you're applying for a job. You're be in three categories once I Google you. If you get to my top 10, my top 10 is who I'm Googling, okay? I'm gonna interview four. There's a negative, neutral, positive, okay? You're posting super inappropriate stuff online, you're out.

Lucas Clarke (01:54:49.559)
Mm

George Couros (01:54:58.43)
I don't want anything. don't, cause you know what I know is going to happen as soon as I hire somebody, parents are going to Google you. So now I didn't do my due diligence. Okay. So now I'm going to look bad if I don't do my homework. It's like not calling your references. Neutral. I can't find anything about you. Like there's nothing. Okay. There's nothing bad. There's nothing good. Positive is like, look at what Lucas does. Like this is amazing. What a credit to the profession. This is great.

Lucas Clarke (01:55:04.846)
Yep.

George Couros (01:55:27.212)
So you are getting in the door because of this, right? And part of it too is I am now in a situation and this is what I want to teach students. I'm not applying for jobs. Jobs are finding me. I didn't ask to be in your podcast. You reached out to me because you see my stuff. You see this. The ultimate is not like, Hey, get ready for when you apply a job. It's like, Hey, why don't you do good stuff that people say? Like, I want to work with this person. I want this person on my team. They start reaching out. They start finding you. So really

Lucas Clarke (01:55:42.124)
Yep.

George Couros (01:55:55.512)
how do we actually help our students? How do we help our students actually when someone Googles them, they're like, wow, look at what this person is doing. Look at all the great stuff that they do. But what happens a lot of times, there is a superintendent I saw speaking and I thought it was really, really interesting. They said, hey, we got rid of phones in our school and we have actually seen now because we've done this, zero incidents of cyber bullying.

during school hours. All right, okay. What about after school hours?

Lucas Clarke (01:56:32.074)
Hey, that's data driven instruction right there. The superintendent's just...

George Couros (01:56:34.198)
How did you do it right? Like it's like, so is it we're helping or we're just saying, yeah, let's just do it. Let let everyone else do with it too. Right. So

Lucas Clarke (01:56:43.734)
Well, yeah, now you're saying basically now we don't have to deal with it anymore. That's yeah. Yeah.

George Couros (01:56:46.88)
It's not our problem. It's not our problem. Even though it actually kind of becomes your problem because if they're like bullying each other after school and it actually makes its way to like a physical fight, altercation during school, like there's actually, don't know, in Alberta that actually would be caused for suspension if outside school affected in school. So my concern is like, it's not, again, it's not like we should have phones in classrooms. It's like, hey, are we saying?

We are now super anti -technology. We're not gonna teach our kids any of this stuff while we're also watching politicians basically act worse than children and be the standard of how we, like, we're all about owning each other. Like, my political person owned this person or like this person or we know how to like kind of.

Lucas Clarke (01:57:37.901)
Yep.

George Couros (01:57:39.148)
Like, yeah, you can vote for whoever you want. If you hate everybody, like it's kind of like some of that stuff, right? So it's, it's there is, and I think there is a something I saw. And again, cause you have not seen the Louis hobo. I'm obviously extremely old in this conversation. I grew up in a time where we were taught, do not talk politics and religion with strangers. And that's kind of been my mentality for like, how are you social media? It's a bunch of strangers. Don't talk politics, religion.

Lucas Clarke (01:57:43.894)
Hehehehe.

Lucas Clarke (01:57:57.152)
Hahaha

George Couros (01:58:07.958)
One thing that really pushed me was I saw a meme and it said, I know. Yeah, exactly. I'm actually like, I can get jiggy with it. So, so, so it said this when we were kids, we were taught, don't talk politics and religious strangers. What we should have been taught is how do we talk politics and religion with strangers in a civil manner? And I was like, yeah, like that's what we need to focus on. And I don't know.

Lucas Clarke (01:58:13.486)
That does not make you sound old in the conversation.

You

Lucas Clarke (01:58:35.835)
Mm

George Couros (01:58:37.738)
If we are like, it's, not, I want kids obsessed with phones, you know, I want kids creating stuff that's meaningful to them. And sometimes that's going to be without a device. Sometimes it's going to be with a device. we like closing some doors or just saying, this is not our issue. We don't have to deal with this. And I know, I know that, you know, teachers want the best environment. I understand that. And I'm not taking a very like hard line stance. I'm just saying.

We have like the focus is how do we help kids? It's really hard for me to listen to someone say, you don't use a thing I'm benefiting from using. Cause like even, even, where did I read? Where did I read the ancient generation? I read two books at the same time, digital minimalism by Cal Newport, which talks about like using the stuff as little as possible. And I read the ancient generation by Jonathan Haidt, which is like,

Kids shouldn't be using phones, all this stuff. Where did I learn about both of them? On social media. Where did I read them both? On my phone, on the Kindle app. If they're so against these things, why even make it available on Kindle? Like what? Do know what I mean? Like, hey, I'm super against it. I'm super against it unless you know I make a little money.

Lucas Clarke (01:59:49.912)
Yeah, it's a central value kind of.

Lucas Clarke (01:59:55.96)
You

George Couros (01:59:57.368)
Do you know what mean? So there's a little bit of that that it bugs me. It bugs me because it's like, hey, it's really hard. like, it's all about nuance. think that's, we live in a time where it's really important that people take sides. Whereas I'm like, yeah, I'm kind of a middle guy. And I know people hate that too. like, no, you gotta be on the side. No, I wanna figure stuff out.

Lucas Clarke (01:59:58.317)
Yeah.

Lucas Clarke (02:00:20.334)
Well, and it's also okay to be a middle guy that disagrees with something. Like you don't need to be the other, like whatever, just because you disagree with one approach.

George Couros (02:00:27.671)
Yeah.

George Couros (02:00:31.286)
Right, like I'm also, you know, there's times when my oldest daughter's on the iPad and she's doing whatever she's doing and she's like miserable and snappy. I'm like, that's going away. We're done with this right now because I don't know what's going on with you. But you're like a little rude right now. And you can see it, but I know this is gonna be kind of old school. You know what that's called? Parenting.

Lucas Clarke (02:00:47.203)
You

Lucas Clarke (02:00:52.856)
You

Lucas Clarke (02:01:01.004)
Whoa!

George Couros (02:01:01.262)
Like that's a thing that's like sometimes I know it's controversial. We don't have free range children, right? So we there's sometimes where I'm like, yeah, no, you're actually this is not okay. You're you're not being polite. And then, you know, she understands that and there's like, but I also teach her how to use this to I see her using it sometimes. Like even one of the I do these videos, I do these like walk videos after

Lucas Clarke (02:01:04.725)
You

Yeah

George Couros (02:01:28.92)
You know, it's just stuff I'm thinking about and I don't like I, I sometimes we'll do three in a week and sometimes do one. Right. And I actually, what I do, I showed her how to edit it, how I edit it, how I had captions, all this other stuff. I'm teaching her the skills. So, you know, and I'm teaching her like, Hey, I use my phone. Here's, get the video. Here's, I use cap cut, blah, blah, blah. So I want her to understand. Yeah. Like I want, I want my kids, I don't want my kids to be, I also, you know, the, beautiful thing is TV is going to wreck everything.

Lucas Clarke (02:01:33.816)
Well, that's when those running thoughts are fresh. Like you gotta, yeah.

Lucas Clarke (02:01:48.524)
and you're using it positively. Yeah.

George Couros (02:01:58.466)
And it was like a very consumption thing, right? I can understand like the internet is such a different space than TV. So you can't use the same TV internet argument, but I really want to teach not only my kids, but all kids, how do you actually contribute? How do you actually add? Cause I think it's a lot of like this. I'm smarter. Yeah, like I was like, you know, it's funny. Like my friend, I grew up in Humboldt, Saskatchewan. And yeah, yeah. And so my...

Lucas Clarke (02:02:15.788)
Well, the medium is the message kind of thing. All that classic McClough and stuff.

Lucas Clarke (02:02:24.409)
really? did not? Okay.

George Couros (02:02:28.3)
My friends never have said this to me, but they're kind of like, why did you become smart? Like what happened? You are not a smart guy. Like there's a little bit of that. Like you wrote a book, multiple books. And it is, I actually really truly believe this. I would have never written anything if I didn't start that portfolio to understand kids. And I was like, you know what? I have to really think about what I'm saying right now.

Lucas Clarke (02:02:35.713)
You

Lucas Clarke (02:02:39.18)
Yeah.

George Couros (02:02:57.23)
everyone in the world can read this and so I better be thoughtful. So like it actually challenged me to be, to think of different people's perspectives, right? And one of things I always talk about is like when you're writing, you know, something online, what you should try to do is take what I call a 360 degree perspective of it. Think about what the argument is going to be against what you're saying and make sure you address it. Because if you don't address it, somebody's going to address it in the comments, right? So I'd rather

Lucas Clarke (02:03:05.944)
Mm

George Couros (02:03:25.614)
say like, yeah, I'm not saying this. That's why like even, even it's like in my, Hey, I'm not saying I'm four phones in the classroom. So like I'm making that very clear, but I want people to understand like, and I'm not like against banning them or it's that it's kind of like, I'm trying to address all these things. Cause I don't want to say, cause that's what I knew they're going to say, Nope, there's no 360 CBC. want, we want a dynamic. Like, I actually years totally. And I actually, so I knew this cause I was on CBC years ago or

Lucas Clarke (02:03:41.016)
Hmm.

Lucas Clarke (02:03:49.548)
George versus.

George Couros (02:03:55.34)
No, it was actually CTV. Different camera, different camera lens. And I think it was, she's like, she's a, I don't even know what it's called anymore. She's in the liberal cabinet, Marcy Ian, I -E -N. So she had me on and they were like talking about cursive handwriting.

Lucas Clarke (02:03:58.954)
And Brighton Moosejaw.

Lucas Clarke (02:04:15.022)
Okay, yeah, I think I know what you're talking about,

George Couros (02:04:23.358)
And they brought me in, I'm like, that's cool. Like, I'm gonna be interviewed for this. So I'm doing all this technology stuff. So I was brought in as the anti -cursive guy. And I like constantly was like, arguing like, hey, I'm not saying get rid of cursive. I'm just saying there's only so much time in a day. Do we teach kids how to like do podcasts and create videos, all this other stuff, right? And it was like, no, you're like anti -cursive. I'm like, I'm not that guy. So then what happens?

Lucas Clarke (02:04:38.21)
Mm

George Couros (02:04:50.464)
It's like, screw this George guy. He's an idiot. And then it's like, so that's the internet. So I'm like, I'm not dealing with this. Like I just don't like, cause I want to have a conversation with it's like, no, we got to pit. We're going to have this person. We're gonna have this person. We're going to get them to fight. then whatever happens online, not our problem. So it's just kind of like, no, let's just like, let's have a conversation. You know, like what are we doing as adults? How are we modeling this stuff? Like again, and I think, I think Jonathan Heights are a brilliant mind, right?

Lucas Clarke (02:04:53.976)
You

Lucas Clarke (02:04:57.549)
Yeah.

Lucas Clarke (02:05:18.85)
Yes.

George Couros (02:05:19.436)
He posts stuff on his Instagram account. And when I say he does, his team does, because he's not posting as much. There's no way he doesn't have the time. And because he's doing interviews. But there was one I saw that was like, Hey, it's phone free Friday. Like, how are you posting this then?

Lucas Clarke (02:05:26.7)
No.

Lucas Clarke (02:05:35.096)
You

George Couros (02:05:37.378)
Right? Like you actually posting this on Phone Free Friday and getting people like, yeah, like I love Phone Free Friday, me too. And it's like, okay.

Lucas Clarke (02:05:37.836)
Like, it's pre -recorded on Thursday.

It's crazy.

Lucas Clarke (02:05:47.406)
Look at this online community of Phone Free Friday.

George Couros (02:05:51.722)
I just, that's, that's, you know, that's where, that's where I'm struggling myself.

Lucas Clarke (02:05:56.439)
And and there's the title for our episode right there. Phone Free Friday. All right. So, Mr. Kouros. I got one more one more quote for you to unpack, and that's when I always end up the episodes with. And I think it will strike effectively for you specifically because you are kind of in so many contexts speaking all the time. And it's education is what remains once you've forgotten everything you've learned in school.

George Couros (02:05:59.928)
Yeah.

Lucas Clarke (02:06:25.064)
What is it that you want people to take away from their time with you specifically that they won't get with anyone else?

George Couros (02:06:31.842)
they won't get, I think that for me, what I would love to see is don't ever take any ideas that anyone shares, including myself, and just assume that they're right or wrong. Take it, make it your own context. And I apologize. That's how long we've been on this podcast,

Lucas Clarke (02:06:52.494)
Sorry.

George Couros (02:06:54.902)
Yeah, so I think for me, it's just kind of take these ideas, take what you share and create something with them. That's what we want kids doing is actually that's where you find the true value of this stuff. A lot of people push back on growth mindset and I actually think that's rightfully so because sometimes I think it's like compliance with another night. Like name is like, hey, if you don't agree with me, it's because you don't have a growth mindset. It's like, no, I actually just don't want to skydive. So that's just me. So I think it's

Lucas Clarke (02:07:01.517)
Mm

George Couros (02:07:22.326)
I think when I talk about the idea of the innovators mindset, it's not, it's not just knowing that matters. It's actually what you do with what you know, it's what you create with it. And I think, you know, what I hope is people posting on this, sharing some of their own insights, sharing some of their own takeaways. And when you do that, it will become so much better. I I'm all about, for example, slow reading. I try to read a book really slowly, capture some quotes, capture some ideas. And then I write about it. Once I write about it, it's like,

Lucas Clarke (02:07:43.351)
Mm

George Couros (02:07:52.232)
stuck. Now it's mine. Do you know what mean? Now I've like made a connection long -term. know someone's like, I'm like, I read like hundred books this year. I'm like, tell me like three things you've learned. I couldn't even tell you. Right. So I think, you know, takes this, this podcast, this process and actually, you know, create your own takeaways and, find your own pathways forward because ultimately at the end of the day, you find your success.

Lucas Clarke (02:07:57.326)
feel like you almost have to for like a book to really mean something.

Lucas Clarke (02:08:04.258)
Yeah.

George Couros (02:08:21.792)
And that's what we want to teach kids is that success will never be determined for you. You define it yourself and you got to find your own pathway toward that.

Lucas Clarke (02:08:30.818)
I don't really know what's going on with the picture here, but thank you. you're okay.

George Couros (02:08:33.624)
Yeah, my camera's dead man. Camera's dead.